Vanguard and the Iron Symphony: 05SEP09

[Aryte]

Contained here are the logs of the IS/VG meetings. In addition, letters between Christoph and I.

[20:04] Ethan Schuman: First off, I'd like to thank everyone for coming to this meeting. I'd like to extend a special thanks to Caine Constantine for his presence, even though I know he's not feeling well.

[20:04] Caine Constantine: swine flu

[20:05] Caine Constantine: (or maybe just a cold, but that seems more dramatic)

[20:06] Ethan Schuman: The purpose of this meeting is simple. The goal is the reconciliation of the Iron Symphony and Vanguard Armed Forces, for past greivances, and to make assurances that the future will not only be devoid of the occurances that have led us to this meeting, but of malicious behavior as a whole.

[20:06] Ethan Schuman: (Give a sec. Turning on typing animation)

[20:08] Ethan Schuman: I'd like to go over a few ground rules and suggestions, as well as discuss the format of how this meeting will occur.

[20:08] Christoph Naumova: Alright.

[20:09] Ethan Schuman: The first suggestion I have to make is that we all leave our egos at the door. This meeting hasn't been called to allow the flexing of e-peens or to belittle and humiliate individuals in attendance.

[20:10] Ethan Schuman: This is about the health of the community. Let's treat each other as adults, and equals. At the end of the day, this meeting isn't just about us, but about our soldiers, and the community as a whole.

[20:11] Ethan Schuman: That being said, it is important that we allow ourselves the opportunity to come to terms with one another, and to reconcile our histories with each other once and for all.

[20:11] Ethan Schuman: The meeting will occur in the following format:

[20:12] Ethan Schuman: First, I will turn things over to Lurdan for a brief address. Then, Christoph will be given the floor to address the group. What he says is entirely up to him. He will be given as much time as he requires to make his points, and will not be interrupted.

[20:13] Ethan Schuman: Once that is done, we will open up to a question and answer session, in which all parties present (including Christoph) will be allowed to ask questions, make comments, and raise concerns.

[20:13] Ethan Schuman: Parties will speak in turn and do their best not to interrupt one another.

[20:14] Ethan Schuman: At the conclusion of this session, each party will have a chance to make final comments, at which point we will adjourn temporarily to discuss the happenings of the meeting, and to decide on a future course of action.

[20:17] Ethan Schuman: Should the blockade end, it will be decided at this meeting. The blockade, should we choose to end it, will not immediately drop. Further negotiations will occur to discuss terms of combat and the like before actual engagement begins. However, we will endeavour to make this a speedy process, and the general announcement that the blockades will drop definitely may be made at this point.

[20:17] Ethan Schuman: Does anyone have any questions before I turn things over to Lurdan?

[20:18] Christoph Naumova: I do not.

[20:18] Lurdan Huszar: Alright.

[20:18] Lurdan Huszar: I have two fairly important requests before we begin.

[20:19] Lurdan Huszar: First, in order to facilitate an objective atmosphere, I am requesting that all parties agree to freedom of information. All relevant chatlogs should be able to be shared by any party for the duration of this meeting, do you both consent to this?

[20:20] Christoph Naumova: Of course.

[20:20] Lurdan Huszar: Excellent.

[20:20] Dagger Exonar nods.

[20:20] Lurdan Huszar: Second, we wish to make the logs of this meeting available to the public when it is concluded, do you consent to this?

[20:21] Christoph Naumova: I do.

[20:21] Lurdan Huszar: Great, the floor is all yours Christoph.

[20:24] Christoph Naumova: Gentlemen. I would first like to thank you all for allowing this meeting to happen in the first place - I'm glad that we were able to sit down and have this in a decent and non aggressive mannerism. To start, I would like to state that the main motivation behind my idealisms for being here is to fix the community for the better and further the spectrum of combat that currently exists. My intentions of being here are neither malicious or underhanded - I believe two and a half years of hate and mistrust is more than enough for the lifetime of any community.

[20:30] Christoph Naumova: A lot of you may have concerns of what my goals and amibitions are this time around, so I would like to address these first of all. What I have done in the past and what others have done in the past I apologize for at this point - a lot of them were uncalled for and did not achieve what they were meant to do. In light of my past conduct I would like to point out, for beginners, that in the reconstruction of Vanguard, my Kommand and I have decided that nothing of malicious intent will happen again. I follow what we deem necessary for the group and the strongest belief is that militaries should fight with the weapons we gave them, not banlines or propaganda.

[20:33] Christoph Naumova: I sit here today not because I requested this meeting, but because you as individuals have decided along with a large majority that past actions should not dictate the way things are, and I strongly believe in this statement. I fully do not expect nor hope that any of you forget the actions we've taken in the past - They need to sit as examples and lessons for what we are *not* to do... We need to take all the negativity and attempt to put it in a positive light of learning from past mistakes and push forward.

[20:37] Christoph Naumova: I am not here with an ego nor with a biased opinion of the true intent of what this meeting is, or any set idea of what each and every one of you are thinking. I am simply here to help fix the community before it continues to fall to shambles and to stop the hatred where it stands - I am tired of the strain that it is putting on multiple organizations, not just my own. I believe that if we all cooperate and go about this as mature individuals without the torrent of distrust we can accomplish this and much more together - For we are all after the same goal. I am willing on numerous grounds to put what has been done entirely aside and start anew with all of you here, I just ask that in your questioning and your curiousity you see things on the communities side, unrelated to your relation with me, personally.

[20:38] Christoph Naumova: At this point I would like to finish my opening statement to all of you and open up the chance for those questions to be asked - It is time to get them out of the way once and for all and clear the fog of war that has blinded us.. Ethan, however you wish to do this will work.

[20:39] Ethan Schuman: Very good. We will begin Q&A in just a moment. (Had to go AFK so I'm catching up on reading)

[20:40] Ruin Nefarious: May I?

[20:41] Ethan Schuman: Go right ahead, Ruin.

[20:41] Ruin Nefarious: Prevalent double-talk: not here to be malicious, but a month ago confetti was being thrown when the Merczateers base was wiped by Takkun? Is this a month of immense afterthought on how it was a bad, bad thing, or has Vanguard suddenly just realized it is necessary to act and play nice to avoid decorating ban lines?

[20:42] Ruin Nefarious: At what point did you become remorseful? Not your Kommand, but you, individually. A few weeks ago, you were suggesting to Keno Pontoppidan that it'd be entertaining to see him accidentally return the [TI] servers.

[20:43] Ruin Nefarious: Honestly. Again . . how long ago are we supposed to believe these past actions are past? A month? Or are we shoving those under the carpet and moving on? Forget, but remember the past? I dig that you're saying this whole: let's remember that we did some dick things back in the day. But I am hard pressed to believe Vanguard suddenly learned its lesson a month later.

[20:43] Ruin Nefarious: That is all.

[20:47] Christoph Naumova: Takkun's stay in the Vanguard and his acceptance into it was not because of what he did, but because of his ability as a soldier to command in the field and do what Officers are suppose to do. He also stated he did it in front of intlibber and the sim would be returned to normal fashion shortly after. Us around him were unable to actually go to Badnarik to see what had happened and had no indication that he had actually ejected people, either.. There was even a warjournal story on it if I recall as to it being a 'nonevent'. Our intention behind recruiting him was not to spite you as individuals or the IS as a whole, but to bolster our morale on the field with his experience and shape our divisions into something worth note - To point it out however, he has not been apart of Vanguard for two weeks and we have not attempted to recruit him back into our organization with what he has been doing as of late. As far as the TI stuff and Keno...

[20:48] Dagger Exonar: Can I speak for my own notice?

[20:48] Lurdan Huszar: For sure, Dagger.

[20:50] Dagger Exonar: In regards to what happened, Chris pretty much said how it went down, but he left out a key detail - At the time, we had Van in our ranks. If you've read any of her material she's one of the most bloodthristy anti-IS people I've ever encountered in my life, and she's ... quite good at rallying the troops. Takkun's actions, coupled with the fact that they where humorous to us at the time, lead to a very nonserious attitude for both me and the rest of Vanguard. I apologized in one of the logs for the notice, and my actions, but it was not considered sincere.

[20:52] Lurdan Huszar: Were you under the impression that IntLibber had allowed Takkun to do this?

[20:52] Jim Herbst: Do you believe this justifies your/their actions?

[20:52] Dagger Exonar: I am still unaware of the scope of that incident, and to be completely honest - None of us really could take it seriously, as we are banned from the sims it happened on and could not see for ourselves. When you're 'blockaded' by someone, It's extremely difficult to put things in perspective.

[20:52] Proteus Hand: We were under the impression that a blockade meant nothing.

[20:53] Dagger Exonar: My actions where limited to a baddly worded notice, Takkun's pretty much damned him from ever rejoining the community.

[20:53] Jim Herbst: Yes, Proteus makes a valid point.

[20:53] Ruin Nefarious: Not to be rude. But how do you poorly word "good work, welcome to VG?" Did he damn himself then, or after he ragequit your group?

[20:54] Dagger Exonar: The other night I saw him teleport in to Furizona to blackscreen Merczateers.

[20:55] Lurdan Huszar: Well see, here's where my concern lies - if your first reaction was that it was laughable and insignifigant, doesn't that expose some sort of established mindset within Vanguard?

[20:55] Arch Graves: If I could?

[20:55] Lurdan Huszar: Go for it.

[20:57] Arch Graves: I've been around a lot and I have seen this sort of behaviour in a lot of groups. Something happens and they laugh at it, people tend to think they had something to do with it. I.E. Snowmew video. Vanguard had an idea that it was Ordos fault for a while because we were laughing about it. Is it ok? no, but that doesn't mean we can't put things like that behind us.

[20:58] Proteus Hand: In all fairness, that example pertains to the "old Vanguard" which we can well understand and accept as "dead, gone, and antiquated." However, the confetti for Takkun, and comments for Keno were recent.

[20:58] Christoph Naumova: If you were told something was a joke - That the other side was finding it funny and that it was done in good spirits, you, of course, would believe it was a joke and laugh wholeheartedly about it. Now say in this case that the joke itself was in poor taste and you were not aware of it - Laughing at something with a different idea as to what actually happened is one thing. We were not laughing at the maliciousness and we were not condoning it - He was allowed in due to the lies he fed us and his ability to lead, nothing more, nothing less. Things can be funny to anyone at first glance but quite morbid if you look past the cover of the book.

[20:58] Christoph Naumova: As far as I was saying about TI..

[20:59] Christoph Naumova: I do believe we had a conversation about enough being enough, and old hatred brooding far too long. What is said "jokingly" should hold no merit in the stance of what should and shouldn't happen if the action itself doesn't happen. I've heard enough stories about individuals 'jokingly' threatening to hack our servers and bring down everything, a few of those people affiliated with yourself doing so as well... None of it actually happened, therefore there is no reason to hold it against you or base opinion or allow it to come into scrutiny - Attempts were not even made on either end. As far as my 'understanding' of everything went, I decided during the break I took that the new Vanguard would be nonmalicious and not support these actions.. That is why they did not happen. Joking on any level can be dangerous but you yourself must also understand what is relayed and what the intentions actually were through text can be entirely something different.

[21:01] Jim Herbst: I would like to bring up another recent event, around the time of Takkun.

[21:01] Jim Herbst: similar story, but he's still in VG.

[21:01] Dagger Exonar: Anoki?

[21:01] Jim Herbst: Anoki Chajit and his little defacing of the AN wiki.

[21:02] Jim Herbst: It was easily undone, literally 2 keystrokes, however we have not recieved evidence to conclude that his actions were not well recieved in VG.

[21:03] Jim Herbst: As it is not solid evidence I will not bring it up, but we have reason to believe there's more to the story.

[21:04] Christoph Naumova: As far as Anoki goes... Upon his time of joining I was not personally aware of what he had done and did not know of it for about two weeks. This was only brought to my attention when conversations with you surfaced, Jim. If I do recall however when I found out about this he apologized formally to you, and to my knowledge right now he's been demoted from any rank of merit within my organization and has been repemanded for it. Another side detail is to the best of my knowledge, Vanguard was *not even open* at the time he did this and I was not even online... I also recall estate banning him for a period of time on those grounds.

[21:04] Jim Herbst: I recieved no apology.

[21:04] Proteus Hand: I did.

[21:05] Jim Herbst: wait why did he apologize to you?

[21:05] Proteus Hand: Dagger gave it to me.

[21:05] Christoph Naumova: It was in notecard format and given out to numerous people, even yourself from what I'm told. If you did not receive it when we can of course chalk it up to missdelivery through Second Life. I'm sure someone would be happy to hand it to you.

[21:05] Jim Herbst: you bust a window in a convience store you don't go to the wal mart down the street to apologize.

[21:06] Jim Herbst: somebody care to send me this notecard?

[21:06] Christoph Naumova: Yes but those who are curious about the window being broken are usually told the story.

[21:06] Dagger Exonar: ... you apologize to your new employer for causing trouble.

[21:06] Proteus Hand: It raises the eyebrow of mutual trust - a mutual trust that we're going to need to develop in order to build a stronger community, the same which both parties have dreamed and ranted of at different times.

[21:07] Ruin Nefarious: May I?

[21:08] Ethan Schuman: Go ahead, Aryte

[21:10] Ruin Nefarious: I would expect I speak for most everyone when I make the blunt comment: the trust for Vanguard is rather low. Imagine the scenario of the Ordo and AN-- we hated one another. When we returned to the table, it took tons of proactive demonstration and hundreds of man hours for us to prove to the AN we weren't here to piss in their Cheerios. What exactly is our . . token of trust, here? I recall a few weeks ago that I was told: we must talk to Christoph, or else he'll 'go back to the ways thing were.' Weeks later, the standing Vanguard call was to disregard blockades and attack to the last man.

[21:10] Ruin Nefarious: That isn't proactive trust building.

[21:10] Ruin Nefarious: Threats are not a good way to encourage trust.

[21:11] Lurdan Huszar: [15:02] Christoph Naumova: Although it comes down to this

[15:02] Christoph Naumova: If they dont' want to play nice

[15:02] Christoph Naumova: Then why shouldn't I live up to the reputation they made for me

[15:02] Christoph Naumova: Theres no harm in it since its already there

[21:11] Dagger Exonar: I'll handle this one, I encuraged that attitude.

[21:11] Proteus Hand: If I may...

[21:12] Lurdan Huszar: We want to hear this from Christoph.

[21:12] Ruin Nefarious: No. Please.

[21:12] Ruin Nefarious: You told me, Dagger. "You know how Christoph is, it is why I am in charge of this."

[21:12] Ruin Nefarious: But Christoph wears the bigger hat.

[21:12] Ruin Nefarious: So. Let's hear it from him.

[21:12] Dagger Exonar nods.

[21:21] Christoph Naumova: As I stated above I take advice from those around me and those who at the time are listening to my soldiers, not the storm that is coming from the other spectrum. In a serious matter, at that point in time there were no attempts to speak to us and any and all attempts from our side fell on deaf ears. In both cases I'm told soldiers wished to fight against each other and from a voting session we decided the best way to do this was indeed do it as long as we can. Personally? I've always been fine with sitting in my throne and watching the world go past around me.

[21:21] Christoph Naumova: What you're quoting and relating to is an attitude that was derived from the opinions and beliefs of the majority vote - Dagger, Van, etc. It doesn't reflect at all what I wished to happen, I was entirely willing to go with the flow of "What would get attention" the most by the idealisms behind other people in my group, rather then my own. The intention behind statements such as that was not to "Cause harm" or "Inhibit combat" but to give my soldiers something worth fighting for and to give the community combat, even if it meant ignoring the blockades. If we're going to point fingers in a circle however, I'll be quaint and point out the numerous warjournal posts before all of this with "Vanguard being blockaded forever" even before such things were said.... Also, I would love to point out that the worst thing we've done, even in the darkest days of the blockade was interrupt a few attacks, and did follow the rules of the sim. A good example of this would be TCG allowing my men to set their homes in *their* s

[21:21] Christoph Naumova: pawn.

[21:22] Christoph Naumova: Now as was stated at the beginning of this conversation we should be focusing on what actually happened, not the hot air being bellowed forth without anything to back it behind. We could sit here going back and forth, my side with my huge stack of papers and logs of these sort of situations, and your side with yours - But would would that accomplish in the long run? Nothing, and we'd be right back to hating one another. We're here for progress, not to nitpick at things that have not occured. This is just an endless circle until one side drops their flags, and tonight I'll stand up and drop my own - We've been wrong in the past, people hacking vendors and returning sims - but that isn't the case anymore, and that should be noted.

[21:25] Ethan Schuman: With all due respect, we are very much interested in the future, and not nitpicking the past. Yet, at the same time, to prevent incidents such as those that happened in the past from occuring again, we must first come to terms with the past and understand WHY it was bad, and that's what we're trying to do here, on both sides.

[21:26] Ethan Schuman: Moreover, this isn't just about the past, it's about the present. These happenings are not the distant past, but rather mere weeks ago. Can you honestly say that so much has changed in such a brief period of time? In addition, these excerpts aren't just coming from your men, they're coming directly from you.

[21:27] Ethan Schuman: As a leader among your men, should you not hold both yourself and them to a higher standard?

[21:27] Proteus Hand: Based on your assertions at the beginning of the conversation, you, above all people would certainly be the first to jump towards progressive change, regardless of the scathing criticism found in the inherent sacrifice.

[21:30] Lurdan Huszar: You said that it was the attitude of the majority - to reassume your past conduct? This being.. just weeks ago?

[21:31] Poon Voom: If you were speaking for the majority of your group, does the majority of your group still hold on to your old mindset? If so, how can Vanguard every really change?

[21:34] Christoph Naumova: Yes, that is correct, which is why I'm sitting here at this table and having this conversation with all of you. It's why I'm sitting here at this table saying things are different, stating that things will not happen as they have in the past and will not repeat themselves. I've also stated as a leader among my soldiers I listened to their opinions, their ideas, and their options - Not my own! Also as I've stated, above the majority of these actions were done by other people, not myself. Anoki apologized and got punished for it, Takkun lied directly to all of us and played it off as a joke - It has all been hot air without actions and 'sugguesting' things to do, not actually do them.

[21:34] Christoph Naumova: As far as my soldiers opinions and beliefs? They wanted combat. They saw your posts, they saw your blockades, they simply want the best way to resolve things and when theres no other way to do so. A lot of my soldiers are ex-IS and have their opinions of you as is - It is not my way to tell them what to do and how to think, but simply to tell you that they were not apart of VG for the two years that all of this hate built up. They're intelligent and understanding people, they encouraged me to sit down and have these conversations (Which I wanted to on my own anyway) and work things out in a civil manner rather than actually doing the 'ideas' they had come up with, which is indeed what I stated above. We have not done them.

[21:36] Ruin Nefarious: We're talking about you. You're politic-ing around the question. [21:30] Lurdan Huszar: You said that it was the attitude of the majority - to reassume your past conduct? This being.. just weeks ago?

[21:36] Jim Herbst: What you're implying is that you went off of what your group wants.

[21:37] Jim Herbst: So you made these statements based off of the attitude of your troops towards the IS.

[21:37] Jim Herbst: Acting as their mouthpiece, basically.

[21:37] Lurdan Huszar: If that's the case, how do you expect us to believe that changes have been made?

[21:38] Proteus Hand: And how can we be patronized for our actions in response to the actions of one man, when that one man claims to be the avatar of his masses?

[21:38] Jim Herbst: the vibe I'm getting from this is does your group even WANT to change? is this a matter of mutual change for the better or just "unban us already"

[21:42] Christoph Naumova: As you may've noticed my past conduct was far worse than the idealism of "Intercepting attacks" to have combat within the community. None of the comments that were done involved hacking vendors, returning sims, infiltrating groups - Just simply attacking as we were meant to do with weapons. You're viewing them as malicious when they're meant to be viewed as obtaining an opponent to fight without malicious intent. You're basing current events on past experiences and associating my groups' current idealisms with the old. They are not the same, they're not even close to the same idealisms... and to point out whether or not my group WANTS things to change.. My high command consists of ex Ordo, ex AN, and otherwise good people whom are on good terms with a lot of you.

[21:42] Christoph Naumova: Their want for change and their want to do things is as obvious as the daylight - I'm simply asking you to embrace what was stated at the beginning and what Ethan just said a moment ago - Cease associating the actions of the present with the ones of the past. For all intensive purposes this is an entirely new group.

[21:43] Caine Constantine: If I may say something

[21:43] Jim Herbst: go ahead

[21:43] Caine Constantine: you guys are totally right to ask him why you should trust Christoph

[21:43] Caine Constantine: but I mean

[21:43] Caine Constantine: you must realize

[21:43] Caine Constantine: there is no way he can "prove" this to you or give you a satisfying answer

[21:43] Caine Constantine: because in your minds his past deeds will, understandably, always outweigh this

[21:44] Caine Constantine: so I am not sure if there is anything to be gained by asking him how you can trust him, since he's laid out what he's claiming is the new nature of his group and that's really all he can do

[21:44] Caine Constantine: I mean, it's clear that the admission of Takkun for example was a really bad move

[21:44] Caine Constantine: I think a good step would be to apologize for what was not just a badly worded but clearly malicious notice

[21:45] Caine Constantine: but I think past that, the general theme of "Christoph, prove your newly good and decent nature" is just impossible, there's no way he can do that that I can see, except by proving himself in a sustained period of decent combat

[21:46] Caine Constantine: that's my thoughts on it anyway, in short you guys are right to be very suspicious of him, but on the other hand, I don't know what he could possibly say to fix that./

[21:50] Ethan Schuman: Well Caine, it's not just the long term past we're suspicious of, it's the recent past of VG. Actions as supposedly "innocent" as intercepting attacks clearly speak to a mindset that values the disruption of other organizations who simply want to have nothing to do with them. No matter what color you paint that, it's still malicious. And that's just one example of many. You'll note that we haven't even brought up the past of Lance LeFay, the returning of Adscita, or even the leaking of the old Merczateer weapons. We've focused almost exclusively on what we've seen since Vanguard opened a month and a half ago. And what we've seen of that, has us very cautious. We're still open-minded, but what we're seeking is something to reassure us that this sort of behavior and attitude isn't going to occur anymore with the blockades down, and that said behavior has stopped because Vanguard as a whole realizes it's wrong, not just to get the ban lines to drop. Once we establish that, we can look to the future.

[21:52] Dagger Exonar: ... As soon as we opened, we where blockaded. As soon as we attempted peaceful discussions on the subject we where ignored. Why? Anoki, for actions before VG even opened, I recall he was estate banned from Verklund until we even opened. Perhaps now you can understand why our attitude has, and still somewhat is, very skeptical?

[21:52] Caine Constantine: You are totally right, it was all malicious and mean spirited and wrong, and another example of the cowardly habit of many in the combat community to fight their battles outside of normal combat. And I think it is very courteous of you to be focusing on what they have done recently as an example that while they may have changed, the new form is not really any better than the old.

[21:53] Caine Constantine: The question I am asking is what that "something" is.

[21:54] Ruin Nefarious: I . .

[21:55] Ruin Nefarious: Wow Caine. Uh.

[21:55] Dagger Exonar: In regards to Takkun, I'd like to point out that after I was informed of the scale of Takkun's "Little stunt" was, he was pulled aside and questioned by me about why he did it and why he lied. Over the course of that discussion we came to the conclusion that what is done is done, neither of us will ever see our 'home sims' again, and we may aswell work towards a better future. He promised, and made good on that promise, to behave within VG and obey our rules to the letter. In fact he was a fantastic officer and very humble during his stay. After leaving? Not so much. I believe he views griefing as an acceptable course of combat now, and feels betrayed by the Merczateers. This is another issue all together, and does not involve us in the slightest.

[21:55] Caine Constantine: By the way

[21:55] Caine Constantine: to clarify

[21:55] Caine Constantine: my saying "theyre not any better than the old"

[21:55] Caine Constantine: is my attempt to explain what I think your viewpoint is

[21:55] Caine Constantine: not my viewpoint, Caine loves everyone.

[21:56] Christoph Naumova: Also..

[21:56] Christoph Naumova: Let me try to put this in blunt context, basically to make more of an impact from what Caine said - I'm here, attempting to negotiate and put past differences aside and be the 'better man' by stepping up and saying enough is enough. By doing this, I'm not only putting myself out on the line here as a person, but basing the majority of my organization on the belief that "They want to fight the IS.".. Now understand this - If we open combat with you and this works out, we both win, nothing happens.. But if we do this and *I* screw it up by releasing gear, returning sims, doing anything malicious then there is nobody to blame but myself and my organization will be torn in half. I'm putting just as much trust in all of you with what *I've* worked for to be reasonable, so if this is some ploy or scham I'm not aware of it and I wouldn't be with the stakes that are involved.

[21:56] Caine Constantine: Dagger come on, you knew he returned the base and then admitted him, can't you just say "our bad, sorry yo, we won't admit those kinda people in the future cause its a slap in the face to you guys"?

[21:57] Caine Constantine: They have a really strong point when they say in essence "The Takkun incident proves you guys haven't changed"

[21:57] Dagger Exonar: Er, I apologised already for my actions at the time, I'm simply stating the fact Takkun mislead us. In fact I've apologised twice now... Should I make it a page long notecard for notice distribution?

[21:58] Caine Constantine: If that's the case then I think all is well, I must have missed it then.

[21:58] Christoph Naumova: Let me be quite frank for a moment, as well.

[22:00] Ethan Schuman: Not to interrupt you if you're typing, Christoph, but I think I may be able to sayve you some time.

[22:00] Ethan Schuman: *save

[22:00] Ethan Schuman: If we open combat with you and this works out, we both win, nothing happens.. But if we do this and *I* screw it up by releasing gear, returning sims, doing anything malicious then there is nobody to blame but myself and my organization will be torn in half.

[22:00] Ethan Schuman: That right there...

[22:00] Ethan Schuman: ...is exactly what we were looking for.

[22:01] Ethan Schuman: That's the something, Caine. That's the look towards the future. That's the understanding of how high stakes this really is.

[22:01] Caine Constantine: Very good!

[22:02] Christoph Naumova: I am simply putting my faith into an organization that *you* have created in an attempt to resolve past differences. Everything I am and have is on the line, so I do not take this lightly.

[22:04] Ethan Schuman: Your recognition of that fact is the very thing we've been hoping for.

[22:05] Lurdan Huszar: You basically just identified the only reason I'd consider unblockading Vanguard at this point Christoph.

[22:05] Lurdan Huszar: It's good that there's a mutual understanding of that.

[22:10] Ethan Schuman: The past can be reconciled with. The present we've discussed, and we now know that you understand what's invested in this. It's the future we have to turn to now. We must discuss what will occur in the future to prevent these circumstances from ever occuring again, and receive assurances that you will take preventative and corrective measures.

[22:12] Christoph Naumova: Of course.

[22:16] Ethan Schuman: Alright. Sorry about that. I'll begin with a few questions of mine with regards to the future, and what we can do to make sure we don't find ourselves in the same situation a month from now.

[22:17] Christoph Naumova: Go ahead.

[22:19] Ethan Schuman: One of the main issues that we've discussed today was the Takkun issue, which boils down to subordinate accountability. What do you plan to do to assure in the future that not only will your subordinates be held to discipline, but what will you do to take preemptive measures to ensure that your men don't engage in such actions to begin with?

[22:20] Dagger Exonar: "Loki"...

[22:20] Christoph Naumova: I demoted Anoki and blacklisted Takkun for a reason. People who do things wrongs are punished, as per Loki being removed for his antics and other members of my officer core getting removed for misbehavior. If you can promise me the same respect on your end, I'll punish my soldiers for their wrongdoings.

[22:20] Christoph Naumova: Things wrong*

[22:21] Dagger Exonar: Case in point, Loki was removed and estate banned before he even had a chance to tell anyone. To this day, not many know what he did.

[22:21] Ethan Schuman: That's half of the question. What preemptive measures do you intend to take to make sure those actions don't occur to begin with?

[22:21] Jim Herbst: may I bring up something?

[22:22] Christoph Naumova: You can only train a dog and make examples of so many - People still have free will and will act out regardless of how hard you drill it into them not to. The rules and training to prevent these instances are already in place, and people have seen the consequences first hand. I will not lie and say the world is perfect.

[22:22] Jim Herbst: People who join vanguard usually have a certain expectation of what they will get to do.

[22:23] Jim Herbst: What sort of action would you undertake to ensure that the community is aware

[22:23] Jim Herbst: "hey, we're not that kind of group anymore"

[22:23] Proteus Hand: That's as effective as the sky raiders signing SLSALT...

[22:24] Dagger Exonar: ... I wrote an entire letter to the IS about this.

[22:24] Jim Herbst: but we're not "the community"

[22:24] Jim Herbst: Caine represents "the community"

[22:24] Jim Herbst: not us.

[22:24] Christoph Naumova: You must know from leading a military that 99% of people who join any army just want to have weapons and shoot at people. If they're not exposed to the wrongdoings of the past or any group then they do not repeat those actions.

[22:24] Jim Herbst: That is an exaggeration.

[22:24] Christoph Naumova: Also, have you read our handbook? It's drilled into their skulls that such actions are not tolerated anymore and we're different.

[22:25] Jim Herbst: a good proportion of people, as you pointed out earlier

[22:25] Jim Herbst: come from other groups

[22:25] Jim Herbst: do they join VG EXCLUSIVELY for your guns? probably not.

[22:25] Caine Constantine: To be honest

[22:25] Caine Constantine: considering Vanguard is the only group, if we're all being honest, that has cool stuff and isn't in the IS

[22:25] Caine Constantine: that could very well by why.

[22:25] Proteus Hand: You don't join a military to have a gun and shoot at people.

[22:26] Caine Constantine: Or one reason that is.

[22:26] Dagger Exonar: ... Technically we recieved a portion from MC because they view VG as a prime platform to engage Ordo in fair combat without needing to join the IS or deal with 'friendly combat'.

[22:26] Christoph Naumova: No, they joined VG for friends and having hopes to shoot at the armies they left.

[22:26] Dagger Exonar: So yes, they joined for combat, not for the roleplay. Van is an interesting case though.

[22:26] Jim Herbst: Correct.

[22:26] Christoph Naumova: Pretty much what Dagger just stated.

[22:26] Proteus Hand: Honestly, you can just join "[ The Fallen ]" and wait for the notices full of cool things to roll by, if you want guns to shoot at people.

[22:26] Dagger Exonar: ...

[22:26] Proteus Hand: And writing something in your handbook WON'T stop someone from doing these things.

[22:27] Christoph Naumova: Yes but that would be implying that people are patient, which isn't the case for the majority of said individuals.

[22:27] Proteus Hand: I've seen firsthand the measures taken to punish this, but is it changing the atmosphere?

[22:27] Dagger Exonar: So why write rules if you assume they'll be broken anyway? It gives us a gaurentee to enact punishment on people.

[22:27] Christoph Naumova: I cannot control free will (Trust me, I've tried.) I can only show them the lines and enforce them when things do happen, but that is just it - Things always happen.

[22:27] Christoph Naumova: It is about how it is handled that matters.

[22:27] Jim Herbst: a demotion doesn't change a tone.

[22:28] Caine Constantine: Proteus, how do the Merczateers ensure their members and potential members in the combat community know that these activities will not be tolerated?

[22:28] Lurdan Huszar: We're looking for what measures you'll take to change the collective tone or mindset of Vanguard to one more aligned with militaries like our own - and mantain it.

[22:28] Caine Constantine: If there's a way to go about doing that that Vanguard hasn't done yet then you should tell em so they can do it.

[22:28] Proteus Hand: Our Phase I isn't a brainwashing fact-drilling ceremony.

[22:28] Jim Herbst: Well, I think I could probide a good example.

[22:28] Jim Herbst: *provide

[22:29] Proteus Hand: It's a series of discussions, that develops an atmosphere and mindset conducive to the IS doctrine.

[22:29] Dagger Exonar: We have an entire division assigned to dealing with combat violations on /enemy sims/, Hollow personally goes to Nerva after every fight to ensure any rule breakers are delt with and the rules are made clear.

[22:29] Arch Graves: As some of you may know, I have taken charge of Vanguards MP group. MP has been thriving. The members of VG have something to fear in breaking the rules now, and that is me. I will not tolerate bad behaviour. If you have any issues with a member of Vanguard, you should bring them up to me in note card, and I will waste no time in finding out the truths, and handing out my punishments.

[22:29] Lurdan Huszar: We're talking about the attitude, the tone - the mindset.

[22:29] Lurdan Huszar: Not just combat infractions.

[22:30] Lurdan Huszar: That's not signifigant.

[22:30] Arch Graves: The mindset is changed based off of this Lurdan.

[22:30] Christoph Naumova: Also, just tossing this in there as a reference - It's the veterans and the individuals who have been around for years that usually cause the problems, not the basic enlisted. Takkun is a good example of why even you cannot make sure nothing happens 100% of the time.

[22:30] Dagger Exonar: Arch is fucking scary.

[22:30] Caine Constantine: Oh that's actually not a bad point, I guess it is usually the oldbies causing the biggest trouble

[22:31] Caine Constantine: but then again, they all started somewhere

[22:31] Ethan Schuman: Exactly. What do you plan to do to change the mindset of those veterans, to make sure not just that these incidents are dealt with when they occur, but that people don't get the motivation to do them in the first place.

[22:31] Caine Constantine: what do you guys do other than threaten people with demotion or ejection though?

[22:31] Dagger Exonar: as Salone has stated before, If Vanguard where ever to do something like return a sim, mass eject a group, or hack vendors, On our watch, we would be the first to leave.

[22:32] Jim Herbst: If I were in your position, and I was not all that long ago

[22:32] Christoph Naumova: As I stated earlier however the Veterans in my group wish to fight you and do not support the drama mongering position of doing malicious actions.

[22:32] Jim Herbst: the course of action I would take is to round up all your troops, all the people who give a flying one about what goes on in Vanguard

[22:32] Jim Herbst: and tell them straightforward

[22:32] Christoph Naumova: But even with that said - There are measures in place to teach people about what is right and wrong and I have officers babysit (Even though they dont need it) over every single soldier in any confrontation. People dedicated to sitting in the hub and watching.

[22:32] Jim Herbst: "we used to antagonize the IS, we're not doing that anymore."

[22:33] Dagger Exonar: Chris stated that the examples of the bast shouldn't be forgotten, they should be looked at as things not to do - What was gained from hacking vendors? What was gained from returning sims? Nothing but trouble. Nobody wants that repeated, Chris wouldn't be here nor would I.

[22:33] Dagger Exonar: Past, bast.

[22:33] Dagger Exonar glares at Arch.

[22:33] Jim Herbst glares at Arch.

[22:34] Caine Constantine glares at Arch in order to fit in.

[22:34] Arch Graves glares at Arch.

[22:34] Dagger Exonar offers Arch a four prim chainsaw.

[22:34] Arch Graves: ANYWAYs.

[22:34] Arch Graves: If the crime was serious enough I would waste no time in Abuse reporting a member myself if need be, I'm very serious when it comes to these sort of things.

[22:34] Ethan Schuman: That's what we're talking about, Dagger. Combat infractions are relatively minor. In the grand scheme of things, it's what occurs OFF the battlefield that does the most damage, and is what needs to be guarded against. What preventative measures are you going to take, or are you taking, to make sure these things don't even occur to get to incident handling?

[22:35] Christoph Naumova: Drilling it into their heads through training while they progress is the most effective way to do it, aside from leading by example and making examples of those who do not.

[22:35] Dagger Exonar: Arch has a collection of spleens from people who have joked about hacking websites and harming IS sims, I can tell you from my own experience that sort of thing is not tolerated. A griefer group does not get combat.

[22:35] Proteus Hand: We can understand that you know longer wish for such atrocities within the community. We understand that you wish to hold yourself to a much higher standard, and see things from a more evolved standpoint. What we don't understand, is what you have to bring to the table in terms of fixing this throughout your own ranks, and more importantly, the community. This CANNOT be done solely through "giving people a bunch of combat." If that were the case, then Caine would have solved the problem months ago.

[22:36] Dagger Exonar: .... What?

[22:36] Caine Constantine: I think what they are saying Dagger is

[22:36] Caine Constantine: other than punishing or threatening people

[22:36] Caine Constantine: what are you doing to ensure this stuff doesn't go on anymore

[22:37] Proteus Hand: It goes further than that.

[22:37] Proteus Hand: What are you really planning to fix in the community, other than having "five fleet ships in the air, and everyone shouting 'great fight!'"

[22:37] Caine Constantine: Like instead of saying "If you hack a vendor you're DEMOTED" you would say "We believe that combat should stay on the battlefield and people should respect other's work" or something

[22:38] Proteus Hand: Operation Crucifix + Ecstasy doesn't solve inherent problems.

[22:38] Dagger Exonar: Proteus the community is a living thing, you do not 'fix' it, you do not 'control' it, our actions create ripples that affect others but in the end you have to realize it's all about combat, and these sort of three hour long table meetings are what 90% of the community wants to avoid like a plague.

[22:38] Dagger Exonar: We don't demote, we eject and estate ban, Look at Loki. He actually did something. Others? They're just fooling around, and we've threatened them with similiar punishments if they dared.

[22:40] Lurdan Huszar: Fear isn't enough. We wrote a doctrine that explains in great detail what conduct we expect from our personnel and why - why it's the right thing to do. Our training is formatted specifically to foster a positive mindset, it is things like this we are looking for. What do you really offer?

[22:40] Arch Graves: OH!

[22:40] Arch Graves: Well Lurdan this is something I personally just went over with Chris.

[22:40] Dagger Exonar: Rank structure in Vanguard is different than the other militaries, promotions are given based off doing the actual work and removed when you fail to complete your duties. They come and go, and we refuse to adopt a system requiring months and months spend standing on a wall to earn officership or any other sort of 'time spent in group' reward. Like I said, we don't demote, we down right eject flat. People haven't fucked around since Loki.

[22:41] Arch Graves: I am going to help in creating a phase in training specifically designed to handle this.

[22:41] Lurdan Huszar: Dagger, stop dodging.

[22:41] Christoph Naumova: Let me be blunt

[22:42] Christoph Naumova: We do the most we can do without dictating peoples lives. We have orientation, we have training and meetings with an extensive notecard they're forced to read upon joining - It tells them what is right and wrong, it tells them to be good individuals and respectful to the community.

[22:42] Arch Graves: Scenarios will be given and actions will be gauged, hopefully resulting in positive results.

[22:42] Christoph Naumova: Nomatter how much you write, nomatter how much you force them to hear "This is right, this is wrong" there are people who will act on impulse and defy all logic at the most impossible of moments for absolutely no reason.

[22:43] Dagger Exonar: Takkun.

[22:43] Proteus Hand: There is always a reason for everything, regardless of whether or not the logic is coherent.

[22:43] Christoph Naumova: We will do as we have been doing and perhaps restructure a bit of our basic training to purposely point out "This is bad. Again, bad bad bad bad bad bad bad" but that is the most we can actually do - Anything past that doesn't make anything more secure or less likely.

[22:44] Christoph Naumova: Takkun claimed he did it because the group was poorly organized and he was tired of the community and all that fun stuff - The logic wasn't true and nomatter how much you pounded it into his head that things were fine (When they were!) and what he believed was wrong, it still happened.

[22:44] Dagger Exonar: I'm pretty sure we're going to be the only non-IS military to require the IS doctrine be read during training.

[22:44] Christoph Naumova: The best thing any organization can do at any point is promise to punish those involved and teach right from wrong in a specific mannerism.

[22:45] Arch Graves: I.E. What Grave did to AN while he was still a member of Ordo, that is something that Ordo was not able to avoid even in there advanced training.

[22:45] Jim Herbst: Wasn't that you?

[22:45] Arch Graves: Pardon?

[22:45] Ruin Nefarious: IE: The Ordo warned the AN and ejected Grave before he did it.

[22:45] Ruin Nefarious: And no. Grave Irata.

[22:45] Ruin Nefarious: Syn Riddler.

[22:45] Ruin Nefarious: Vega Fallen.

[22:45] Ruin Nefarious: VG member.

[22:45] Dagger Exonar: Lairyth.

[22:45] Arch Graves: Right Ruin, and i'm sure if we had the same information, the same steps would be taken.

[22:45] Jim Herbst: v0v, thought you were Grave Irata's descendant account.

[22:45] Dagger Exonar: Oh my god.

[22:45] Arch Graves: ..................

[22:46] Arch Graves cuts self.

[22:46] Dagger Exonar facepaws >.<

[22:46] Arch Graves: Jim, you're fired.

[22:46] Ethan Schuman: But... at the same time, you DID have that information on Takkun, yet you brought him in anyways.

[22:46] Dagger Exonar: ... Ethan we can't exactly go to salamis and see for ourselves.

[22:46] Arch Graves: Yes, but as you said.

[22:47] Christoph Naumova: We had *some* information on Takkun riddled with lies and the persuasion of lags claiming it was in good spirits.

[22:47] Arch Graves: This is about what we will do, not what has been done.

[22:47] Ruin Nefarious: Dagger.

[22:47] Poon Voom: You had a picture of Salamis returned?

[22:47] Ruin Nefarious: YOu could have logged on your Mercz alt.

[22:47] Ethan Schuman: ...but you sent the notice with a screenshot of Badnarik. Do you REALLY have to go there physically?

[22:47] Dagger Exonar: .. Which I did

[22:47] Ruin Nefarious: Then you have no excuse.

[22:47] Dagger Exonar: ... The sim was still there, I was on the wall.

[22:47] Dagger Exonar: Proteus shot me.

[22:47] Arch Graves: Again we are going to a place we have already visted to the past.

[22:47] Christoph Naumova: He claimed it was in good spirits and Intlibber was going to rollback the sim as soon as it happened.

[22:47] Arch Graves: We are now talking about what will be done.

[22:48] Christoph Naumova: Which actually happened to corroborate his story.

[22:48] Dagger Exonar: ... I saw nothing wrong, and there was a Jessie War Journal article about how much of a nonevent this was...

[22:48] Ruin Nefarious: You sent a screenshot out congratulating him, and then saw nothing?

[22:48] Ruin Nefarious: I really don't see how that connects.

[22:48] Dagger Exonar: He gave me the screenshot after he said it was right infront of Intlibber and it'd be rolled back shortly.

[22:49] Arch Graves: Again, please we are talking about what will be happening. I urge you all to stop arguing about this issue.

[22:50] Christoph Naumova: Well let me put it this way,

[22:50] Ethan Schuman: That's just it, though, Arch. This IS the issue. We're trying to ascertain what you will be doing in the future to prevent this sort of thing, and the example of Takkun is a prime case in point to the behavior you HAVE TO AVOID in the future.

[22:51] Christoph Naumova: My entire organization is on the line. Anyone who screws up even slightly to endanger it on my end is *gone*.

[22:51] Proteus Hand: We want to ensure that the mindset that involves the "dance away from actually doing anything to save face" is completely gone, at least from the Kommand. For example, when I approached Christoph about Takkun copybotting, and Christoph said that nothing would be done due to the fact that I didn't have a snapshot seems almost lazy.

[22:51] Dagger Exonar: Okay case in point, If we wheren't blockaded and actually had fun combat going, Do you honestly expect us to fan flames like that?

[22:51] Arch Graves: Right, and I have given you my own word that this sort of thing will be met with harsh punishment, and prevention if it could or would happen again.

[22:51] Proteus Hand: That's like being grounded to your room, and saying that you wouldn't be throwing tantrums if you were let out of your room.

[22:51] Ethan Schuman: Does being blockaded give you an excuse to fan flames?

[22:51] Jim Herbst: I don't know WHAT to expect now.

[22:52] Ruin Nefarious: Didn't we already establish making threats is not encouraging a lift of anything?

[22:52] Proteus Hand: The fact of the matter is, regardless of *where* you are, you're still doing it.

[22:52] Christoph Naumova: I'll step in since this is circling again.

[22:53] Christoph Naumova: To the original point - Measures are in place to prevent these things from happening as best as we can - However, exceptions will happen, it is in the matter of how the military handles it that matters, not that it actually happened.

[22:54] Christoph Naumova: If someone from my group used an alt to mass eject people from your group - Sure, I'd remove them, ban them, spew horrors about their name and make them be the idealism behind "What not to do" -- But if they do this on impulse and their own free will, it is obvious that they *knew* it was wrong but still did it anyway.

[22:55] Christoph Naumova: Those are the people that will slip through the cracks nomatter what methods you employ (Ours will be adjusted slightly to fit the bill of course), and theres nothing anyone can do to inhibit those things from happening.

[22:55] Proteus Hand: That's a disclaimer to our eyes.

[22:55] Christoph Naumova: More like an observation

[22:55] Christoph Naumova: Unless you're willing to state what Takkun did was your fault?

[22:56] Proteus Hand: I'd blace his blame more squarely on chemical imbalance.

[22:56] Christoph Naumova: Exactly.

[22:56] Proteus Hand: place*

[22:56] Christoph Naumova: Something that we do not always have control of.

[22:57] Proteus Hand: So you're going to blame each problem that you cannot conveniently handle or prevent on insanity?

[22:57] Christoph Naumova: I will do everything in my power and make others in my groups teach these idealisms specifically and be intent on making sure this doesn't happen, but that is the best any group can do.

[22:58] Proteus Hand: Wonderful!

[22:58] Christoph Naumova: No, Proteus, I was simply pointing out that you claiming he has a chemical problem is completely contradictory to what you claimed we were doing.

[22:58] Ethan Schuman: "[22:58] Christoph Naumova: I will do everything in my power and make others in my groups teach these idealisms specifically and be intent on making sure this doesn't happen, but that is the best any group can do."

[22:58] Ethan Schuman: That is the type of assurance we're looking for.

[22:58] Christoph Naumova: If it was not your fault, but Takkuns, then obviously there will be situations where you're out of focus.

[22:59] Christoph Naumova: And of course, I did state that in different wordings from the beginning, but it was overridden by the circle of pointing shortly thereafter.

[22:59] Proteus Hand: Takkun is a single case of an individual whom your own recruitment papers regard as one with a "God complex," as opposed to plural anonymous individuals that fit the archetype of one without regard for rules.

[22:59] Proteus Hand: But, I see your point.

[23:00] Jim Herbst accepted your inventory offer.

[23:00] Ethan Schuman: That assurance that was given is an adequate response to the question. Let's move on.

[23:01] Dagger Exonar: .... He had always been my bitter rival from my days in the Ordo, The recruitment paper's is my own little joke about that, and how he was towards us.

[23:01] Poon Voom: It's still worth noting Takkun might have acted differently if he wasn't immediately recieved in open arms even after his actions.

[23:01] Proteus Hand: That's understandable, only a reference towards your familiarity with his character.

[23:02] Ethan Schuman: You've mentioned quite frequently about a desire to improve the community, to restore the health of it. Elaborate upon this. What measures do you plan to take to improve the community?

[23:03] Dagger Exonar: [23:03] Takkun Gray: Well

[23:03] Takkun Gray: Had you not added me to Vanguard

[23:03] Takkun Gray: It's very likely I would've copybotted and leaked more Mercz gear.

[23:03] Takkun Gray: If anything being in VG gave me a reason to be responsible and play nice.

[23:03] Takkun Gray: I didn't even want to join VEEGEE

[23:04] Proteus Hand: I just...

[23:04] Proteus Hand: can't comprehend why someone would recruit anyone that said that.

[23:04] Christoph Naumova: That was said 2 minutes ago.

[23:04] Proteus Hand: Nevermind.

[23:04] Dagger Exonar: Sigh

[23:05] Christoph Naumova: Give people flowers. No, but in all honesty I've already started by giving out things I never used that I do not have need for with reassurances to groups such as TCG - And I was actually planning on releasing a lot of our old stuff (That was legit, mind you) To help stem the tide of unoriginality and use of more than laggy scripting.

[23:05] Lurdan Huszar: We aren't talking about gear and technology.

[23:06] Proteus Hand: It's a start though.

[23:06] Proteus Hand: We can continue focusing on the future.

[23:06] Arch Graves: He was not done. :)

[23:06] Christoph Naumova: Also - Setting a good example and following the rules by enforcing such things seems like a good idealism to show others - A large majority of people follow my example so leading correctly will have an impact.

[23:06] Arch Graves: One momment please.

[23:07] Christoph Naumova: I've also been actively attempting to take the disgruntled members of the community and calm them down - As stated with the Takkun incident indirectly.

[23:08] Arch Graves: Something that is a bit of a challenge, but a worthy cause.

[23:08] Ruin Nefarious: At the start of this meeting you told us you enjoyed sitting back and letting people do their own thing. So now you're going to lead correctly and let them follow example?

[23:09] Dagger Exonar: I would consider 'sitting down with bitter enemies for the good of both parties and the community at large' to be a fantastic example to his men.

[23:09] Christoph Naumova: Do not turn my words against me. I stated I lead through a majority vote and the idealisms of the majority of my army - They want to see change and they want to do what is right to get combat. The one or two people that scream "RETURN THE SIMS" do not dictate those actions.

[23:09] Ruin Nefarious: You forget he, Christoph, also said this was 'our doing' at the start of this.

[23:10] Ruin Nefarious: "[20:33] Christoph Naumova: I sit here today not because I requested this meeting, but because you as individuals have . ."

[23:10] Ruin Nefarious: Turn your words against you?

[23:10] Ruin Nefarious: Your words are all we have.

[23:10] Ruin Nefarious: You have given us nothing but your word.

[23:10] Jim Herbst: Our understanding is we all came here as equals.

[23:10] Ruin Nefarious: And frankly, that's not a lot.

[23:11] Christoph Naumova: It was the decision of my group and the people I stated to attend and fix the community. As I've stated in the past and as I stated just above. They wished to further the community and I've wanted to for a while - This just made it possible.

[23:11] Christoph Naumova: As far as turning my words - Taking things out of context or believing things to be less than just "Black and white" isn't a right Move along. to take.

[23:11] Jim Herbst: One of you just said a bit back that you can't "fix the community"

[23:12] Jim Herbst: now you're pledging to do what you consider impossible?

[23:12] Christoph Naumova: We stated it in context to us fixing the community alone, Jim.

[23:12] Sukasa Rydell: The community is "Living" and cannot be fixed. when we were talking as a group, to co-exist.

[23:12] Dagger Exonar: ... It heals, as a whole.

[23:12] Christoph Naumova: Again, which is why we're here willing to drop the flags and work *with you* to see that to an end.

[23:13] Proteus Hand grins.

[23:15] Proteus Hand: As far as this meeting is capable of going, the only thing that we can aver is that you will be held to that, and I know you're aware of it.

[23:15] ShadowFang Blessed is Offline

[23:15] Proteus Hand: Like you said, everything you are rests on this, and the actions of this cooperation has the potential to change the community for the better, or royally ruin it.

[23:16] Proteus Hand: We'll have to take baby steps, because we've learned from experience what happens when you so much as think about instituting a new tier system in one military prematurely, let alone dropping the largest blockade in history.

[23:17] Proteus Hand: I sincerely hope that you can abide by this.

[23:17] Christoph Naumova: Indeed, I spoke about this with Ethan before the meeting a few days ago.

[23:17] Christoph Naumova: There will have to be terms hammered out, idealisms created, more meetings - I'm sure we'll have fun talking to each other the entire way.

[23:18] Ethan Schuman: That is an excellent segway into my final question.

[23:20] Ethan Schuman: In the Iron Symphony, we manage to maintain a pretty tight knit community through communication. Communication is a vital part of healthy

relations both on and off the battlefield. What communication protocols does Vanguard have in place, and what initiatives will you take to ensure that problems are identified and dealt with before they become larger.

[23:21] Christoph Naumova: We have an internal security group just as you do and we've got forums specifically dedicated to finding and correcting those problems before they grow into something large - We've already prevented something on that level from happening, and we make sure everyone is aware from massive notifications and posting of these updates and said information.

[23:22] Ethan Schuman: That addresses half of the question. What do you plan to do in regards to external communication?

[23:23] Christoph Naumova: I have ambassadors who speak to people.. MC was spoken to by Van, etc.

[23:24] Christoph Naumova: There are methods in place, as I stated -If people do not wish to speak to me directly (Which is usually the fastest course of action to have something done) Then there are people they can relate more to in the chain to do so with.

[23:24] Arch Graves: I would be willing to handle any Ordo things if need be, unless my assistance is unwelcome.

[23:25] Dagger Exonar: Arch would be prime pick for any sort of IS ambassador position, I tend to be branded a cancer and puppet master who's out to destroy various people for illogical reasons, so I'll most likely avoid future meetings unless asked to attend.

[23:25] Arch Graves glares at Dagger.

[23:25] Ethan Schuman: Yes, Christoph, but what would your group do to initiate communication with other groups besides just ambassadors?

[23:26] Christoph Naumova: Your faces of the iron symphony group exists for a reason, to allow inter-military communication, putting those individuals in said group would be entirely acceptable.

[23:29] Proteus Hand: That may be a debate for another time. That would entail IS membership.

[23:29] Christoph Naumova: Was not Dagger technically in that group until yesterday?

[23:29] Proteus Hand: If you're willing to undertake those measures, it's going to take time to observe and scrutinize with your statements from tonight's meetings in mind.

[23:29] Proteus Hand: Technically, he's still in it.

[23:30] Dagger Exonar: ... I'm a very bad furry.

[23:30] Christoph Naumova: Tada, communication! No but in all hones-

[23:30] Christoph Naumova: Moving on, anyway - Yes, I understand, it will take time and there are a lot of things to work out later on.

[23:31] Proteus Hand: awesome.

[23:31] Arch Graves: Cool story bro.

[23:31] Dagger Exonar facepaws >.<

[23:31] Dagger Exonar glares at Arch.

[23:32] Dagger Exonar: This is why we can't have nice things.

[23:32] Proteus Hand logs off.

[23:32] Christoph Naumova: Anything that needs to be addressed - meeting times, documentation, questions, can all go to me.

[23:32] Christoph Naumova: And I swear to God - I feel like I'm in the three stooges at times.

[23:32] Arch Graves: Anyways, all joking aside.... this has been productive. Thank you.

[23:33] Ethan Schuman: Alright. It's getting late. We're at three and a half hours, which is a LOT of text for our officers to read.

[23:34] Ethan Schuman: For the time being, I think this is a good point to adjourn the meeting. We may reconveine later to disucss other points, but for now, we need to discuss what we've heard today.

[23:34] Christoph Naumova: I agree.

[23:34] Ruin Nefarious: Thank you all for your time.

[Guest Ruin Nefarious]

Page break.

[Aryte]

Meeting 2.

[20:02] Lurdan Huszar: Today I'd like to cover our history.

[20:02] Lurdan Huszar: And obviously apologize where apologies are due for certain parts of said history.

[20:03] Lurdan Huszar: It's extremely important that we discuss this so we may put it behind us.

[20:03] Lurdan Huszar: That's key.

[20:03] Christoph Naumova: Yes that does seem like the mutually beneficial thing to accomplish tonight

[20:04] Dagger Exonar: jolly good.

[20:04] Lurdan Huszar: Before we begin, I'd like to ask for your consent again Christoph to freedom of all relevant information and availability of the log of this meeting to the public.

[20:04] Christoph Naumova: Of course.

[20:04] Lurdan Huszar: Alright.

[20:04] Lurdan Huszar: So, let's dive right in then.

[20:05] Lurdan Huszar: We'll look at and discuss each issue in the order of its occurance.

[20:05] Lurdan Huszar: So we'll begin with the Adscita era.

[20:06] Lurdan Huszar: The first thing I can remember Christoph, is you claiming that you would train our high command with your knowledge in psychology for L$5000.

[20:06] Lurdan Huszar: Do you remember this?

[20:07] Christoph Naumova: The claim, yes, the money, No.

[20:07] Christoph Naumova gave you Mercz Meeting Log.

[20:07] Lurdan Huszar: Gonna read this, one moment.

[20:08] Christoph Naumova: Do not believe thats the first one, let me locate the meeting on the day I joined in 2005

[20:09] Christoph Naumova: No, tragically I did not record the meeting from 2005.

[20:09] Lurdan Huszar: Is there anything in this log relevant to the issue?

[20:09] Lurdan Huszar: Skimming through it sorta.

[20:09] Christoph Naumova: No, wasn't sure if that was the correct one.

[20:10] Lurdan Huszar: Alright.

[20:10] Dagger Exonar: May I ask how any of this is relevant? it sounds more like something that could be covered in an IM.

[20:10] Proteus Hand: Long before most of us, still, they lie at the heart of the matter.

[20:10] Lurdan Huszar: We're going to look at every incident Dagger.

[20:10] Dagger Exonar: Which is?

[20:11] Proteus Hand: A long history of wrongdoings built upon one another, that need to be solved from the bottom up.

[20:11] Dagger Exonar: This won't end well for either party.

[20:11] Proteus Hand: It's sort of a catharsis.

[20:11] Lurdan Huszar: But yeah, I only vaugely remember an offer like that for 5K.

[20:11] Christoph Naumova: I do not mind covering every incident, it needs to be done so that it cannot resurface again as an old wound publically or privately - And of course, Dagger, it will bring anger to a few people and a few arguments will be heated, but it's necessary to get it out of us.

[20:12] Lurdan Huszar: I'm willing to pass on this one simply because there are no logs and because I can't remember a damn thing about it.

[20:12] Christoph Naumova: I joined the Merczateers and offered my services to get a rank within the organization (Good intentions to start) When you, Super, Anthony, Psyzan and Spartann were having arguments and things were boiling over - Oh, stephmo too.

[20:13] Christoph Naumova gave you first mercz meeting.

[20:13] Christoph Naumova: In any sense, I agree with you on skipping it since we do not have anything specific from that timeframe to talk about aside from that picture.

[20:13] Lurdan Huszar: Let's talk about the brain tumour, hahaha.

[20:14] Jim Herbst: I got some stuff

[20:14] Jim Herbst: ..around that timeframe

[20:14] Lurdan Huszar: Christoph, was it just a lie to gain sympathy within the group?

[20:14] Lurdan Huszar: That's what a lot of us largely suspected it to be.

[20:14] Christoph Naumova: Yup.

[20:14] Lurdan Huszar: Alright.

[20:15] Christoph Naumova: I'll keep my responses simple and my counters blunt, if that appeals to you?

[20:15] Lurdan Huszar: That's fine.

[20:15] Christoph Naumova: I do not believe either side should go into massive paragraphical context of why they did this and why they did that and the situations that lead up to it involving what they ate that morning

[20:15] Lurdan Huszar: Yeah, for sure, we'd be here 'till midnight.

[20:16] Christoph Naumova: The way I see it we're not here to justify actions, just correct and apologize for the ones that are necessary.

[20:16] Lurdan Huszar: Now, I vaugely remember you requesting a bunch of our content with full permissions, offering space in a vendor.

[20:16] Lurdan Huszar: Tell me about that?

[20:16] Lurdan Huszar: Certainly you didn't require full permissions.

[20:17] Christoph Naumova: I honestly do not remember that. I remember your store in Adscita and you selling your Naruto stuff, but thats it.

[20:17] Lurdan Huszar: Hah.

[20:17] Lurdan Huszar: Alright, that's fine.

[20:17] Christoph Naumova: I do remember getting things full from Sirlor though.

[20:17] Christoph Naumova: Bless his heart and giving us 0 damage bullets.

[20:17] Lurdan Huszar: I paid Sirlor 30K for the script that everyone used for the next three years.

[20:17] Lurdan Huszar: It somehow got leaked.

[20:17] Lurdan Huszar: ..

[20:17] Lurdan Huszar: Anyways, moving on.

[20:17] Lurdan Huszar: This is the big one.

[20:18] Lurdan Huszar: I bought most, if not all of the parcels we used in Adscita.

[20:18] Lurdan Huszar: I clearly remember buying space for an airfield for 30K shortly before you left.

[20:18] Lurdan Huszar: So I did lose a great deal of money when you released our land Christoph.

[20:19] Christoph Naumova: Yes, from the little parcels that Anshe was selling when she first started - I do believe we both pitched in and I was paying tier - I apologize for relasing it but I must indeed state that I didn't benefit from it at all, I did release it back to governor linden and deny reclaim when the lindens asked.

[20:19] Lurdan Huszar: We know you didn't gain anything.

[20:20] Christoph Naumova: But to be fair I do believe we were all mad over little things and overreacted at the time - I admit I did by taking the "Do your worst" portion literally.

[20:20] Lurdan Huszar: And yeah, we know you were paying for tier.

[20:20] Lurdan Huszar: Yeah, for sure.

[20:20] Lurdan Huszar: I'm fairly certain that covers the main stuff for Adscita.

[20:21] Lurdan Huszar: Jim has something to bring up.

[20:21] Jim Herbst: I got something I'd like to bring up which came right after

[20:21] Jim Herbst: you take credit for egging one Admiral Shadow Keegan into resigning with a good portion of the AN and forming the AN II.

[20:22] Christoph Naumova: Indeed, I did claim some credit for the defections that happened at that point. I will not lie - I spoke to Fladara, Verunsan and Shadow about it for a while before the day we assaulted Tethys and they did it mid battle - If not directly responsible I will not deny responsibility for perhaps helping it hit the boiling point with feuds they had.

[20:23] GNR Radio is tuning...

[20:23] Jim Herbst: there was one other thing in that year I recall

[20:23] Christoph Naumova: After that day though I just tagged along to see where things went - I was not a driving factor in what they chose to do or not do after that point.

[20:23] Jim Herbst: it was concerning Nanao's assault armor and Pattehph0x

[20:24] Jim Herbst: I've heard several stories as to what happened, one from you, some from a few others

[20:24] Jim Herbst: what was your involvement in that?

[20:25] Christoph Naumova: Bluntly, Pattehph0x mirrored it and gave it to me, and I retextured and wore it around. Back then, remember, such things were an act of war - It was accepted. Perhaps not the right thing to do or embrace and I apologize for it, but what happened happened.

[20:25] Christoph Naumova: I did however in good faith end up purging it from my inventory entirely.

[20:26] Lurdan Huszar: Shall we move on?

[20:26] Christoph Naumova: I do not mind.

[20:26] Lurdan Huszar: Let's talk about this:

[20:26] Christoph Naumova accepted your inventory offer.

[20:27] Christoph Naumova: Ah yes, I remember this

[20:27] Christoph Naumova: This was after the AN war in tunnel narik and about the time I started VG

[20:28] Lurdan Huszar: Yeah.

[20:28] Lurdan Huszar: I still don't know exactly what the threat was in response to.

[20:28] Ethan Schuman accepted your inventory offer.

[20:29] Christoph Naumova: I cannot recall, I honestly believe I was using fear as a method to make sure nothing would happen in the future or to get our groups unassociated for the time being - I believe I figured if you were under the impression I *could* possibly do something you'd watch what you did in return - I believe the term 'poker face' applies.

[20:29] Christoph Naumova: I believe it was more of a 'prevent things from happening' idea that I took too far and used frustration elsewhere. I cannot remember anything we had feud wise during that timeframe.

[20:29] Christoph Naumova: I recall you hitting us for about 4 months with soldiers and the AN defending us at times in John Stark

[20:30] Christoph Naumova: After that little argument, as well.

[20:30] Lurdan Huszar: Alright, one moment.

[20:31] Christoph Naumova accepted your inventory offer.

[20:31] Lurdan Huszar: Let's talk about that.

[20:32] Lurdan Huszar: And compare for me the Christoph that wrote that, and the Christoph that's sittin' here right now.

[20:35] Christoph Naumova: Blunt honest truth - Back then, such things were a way of life with the majority of militaries and such actions didn't result in bans. I recall the AN being at war with us for months on end after that and it being a constant techrace where none of that was actually used - I do not recall me ever returning their base, hacking anything of theirs, using alts to eject, copybotting, mirroring, or any form of context used in that notecard against their organization and did it rather well by the book. I will not lie, either - Back then I was a much more Zealous man with the idealism that people would fight for what they believe in and it'd only further the war that was happening. You may also know that a lot of the time back then I said things to provoke a response and I baited people frequently for loopholes or weaknesses that weren't evident to the human eye

[20:37] Christoph Naumova: The main difference now however from me back then and me now is that the group I use so zealously defending has matured to the point where I do not have to fight with underhanded tactics or questionable idealisms - The community itself has also matured a lot in the past year and a half, the idealisms and ways things are done have progressively shaped the way things happen and it's brought to light that no, it's not necessary to rely on such things to achieve victory over an enemy force in second life

[20:38] Christoph Naumova: Another big thing is back then the only idealism behind victory was utter annihilation of an enemy organization or group, this was emphasized by assaults by other organizations on armies until they collapsed from the pressure - Morally now we've come to accept, and I've come to accept that wars should be fought with soldiers and weapons, not base returns, mass ejects and 'tangible' threats.

[20:40] Lurdan Huszar: So you claim you and the collective Vanguard have matured past the point of pressuring groups into internal collapse through excessive combat?

[20:41] Christoph Naumova: Well, let me put it this way, do you see any operation crucifixes being launched by my organization for days on end with that goal in mind? When it comes right down to it nowadays, yes, the only intention my soldiers have is to function in combat - To that means we attack at least once a day for an hour or two and thats that. No alt warfare, no internal tomfoolery and no espionage - I'm sure people talk about it to boost morale in the sense of "They're being crushed by us", Just as I'm sure you've all talked about in debriefings of attacks (Glorious victory, etc), but the intention is no longer there.

[20:42] Lurdan Huszar: In this log, you threaten just that to Bizcut.

[20:42] Christoph Naumova accepted your inventory offer.

[20:42] Lurdan Huszar: This is about a month and a half ago, maybe less.

[20:43] Christoph Naumova: Theres no threat in that context, it's a statement of fact. At that time there were internal disputes that were rather public and the AN doesn't doing too well with morale. Given 24 hours I could go through my logs and find conversations of biz and I talking about how we didn't know of VG attacking would bolster the AN morale or kill the group entirely.

[20:43] Christoph Naumova: Wasn't doing too well*

[20:44] Jim Herbst: and you suggested an intent to do just that.

[20:44] Christoph Naumova: This was right after the defections of a few scripters in the group and after the community seemed to be at a standstill.

[20:44] Ethan Schuman accepted your inventory offer.

[20:45] Christoph Naumova: The thing that separates the sugguestion from the actual intent is it never happened. I had the chance to lead assaults for a window of time with the probable outcomes but I didn't risk it nor did I want to see your group come to harm. The AN has always been a prime enemy to fight - You're the only group we've ever gone up against that techraced with us (M2's, Planes, new ones every week to compete) and were happy about it.

[20:46] Jim Herbst: nothing wrong with a good tech race

[20:46] Christoph Naumova: Not to mention leading up to those events I was in Elshout defending you daily and relaxing with the majority of your individuals - I also made the notices in good will (Even if 90% of them refused to do it) For my soldiers to join your organization when I rid of mine in an effort to get you guys up to where yo uwere in 2006.

[20:46] Jim Herbst: sort of a side question

[20:46] Jim Herbst: why didn't any of them actually join?

[20:47] Jim Herbst: all we really got out of the deal with Syxx Craig

[20:47] Jim Herbst: who promptly went inactive.

[20:47] Christoph Naumova: About a dozen applied and went through but stepped out of it - A lot of them were under the impression that they were under no obligation to join since I did state I might restart Vanguard in the future and I wouldn't accept reapplications for rank from people who joined another military and then left.

[20:47] Christoph Naumova: That was in part to not wanting to see a base of 80+ people join your group but be planning on leaving in the future at some point and stripping a chunk at random.

[20:47] Lurdan Huszar: So you claim there was no threat here, Christoph?

[20:48] Christoph Naumova: [2009/07/06 23:04] Christoph Naumova: (Saved Mon Jul 06 23:05:54 2009) With the IS falling apart, Merczateers in disarray and the community willing to embrace Vanguard, I think we should sit down and have negotiations

[2009/07/06 23:04] Christoph Naumova: (Saved Mon Jul 06 23:06:14 2009) I don't feel like attacking the AN would be good for you guys internally with 80+ people for days

[20:48] Christoph Naumova: With that?

[20:48] Lurdan Huszar: Yes.

[20:48] Christoph Naumova: No, there wasn't a threat in context. Publically after the leadership changed hands and there was drama I spoke with someone about it

[20:49] Christoph Naumova: In light of other things the conversations I had with people about it discussing what could and couldn't happen didn't offend anyone for the three months people knew about it beforehand, I'm not pointing fingers but they only became issues and ammunition against me (Suddenly bad) when Jason became leader of the AN. I'm not saying it was the intent but it was dug up for one reason or another.

[20:50] Jim Herbst: I would like to state for the purpose of the log that joining the IS was a decision by Bizcut, not Jason.

[20:50] Christoph Naumova: I don't blame them for using it later on - It was brilliant material in that essence and I admit I might've spoken out of terms in private IM's to a few friends of mine who then went and gave logs away without consent

[20:51] Christoph Naumova: Same thing can be said for a lot of people - I'm sure a lot of things you say to your friends or close buddies you do not mean but say anyway since you can relate - Doesn't mean you believe it or support or even plan on doing it, it's just hot air and ideas.

[20:51] Jim Herbst: Right, I believe the others would like to move on?

[20:51] Christoph Naumova: Apologies if that getting out there or things happening ruined blood between us.

[20:51] Christoph Naumova: Of course

[20:51] Lurdan Huszar: Alright.

[20:51] Lurdan Huszar: This is a huge one.

[20:53] Lurdan Huszar: You acquired a great deal of our gear made by various people with full permissions from Tangent, leaked it, then started claiming I slandered you, said you were going to sue me for doing so, and then suggested that there was a premeditated effort to lure me into saying something you could.. use to collect my assets legally?

[20:54] Lurdan Huszar: And.. I still don't recall saying anything that could be considered slander.

[20:56] Christoph Naumova: The tangent gear thing was something of a lot of events leading up into one final explosion of rage and retaliation. I could go over all of that if you'd like, but it really came down to pink uriels shooting hundreds of mandate boxes in my sim before crashing it, restriction of weapons you had used on your end at a time that ours werent quite perfect for, and the discontentment of everyone in my organization asking me to do something about it - So I gave out what tangent gave me later down along the line in response to it, since at that point we were already banned and it just didn't matter. I would like to point out though that other people had the gear about a month before I did, just didn't publically announce it.

[20:57] Christoph Naumova: Yes, it was a dick move, yes, it was an overreaction, but as I said it was how things progressed back then. Sorry for releasin' your gear and taking the fall on it. I personally know it sucks and sets you back a few months and for that time I apologize. Now as far as the legal stuff goes

[21:00] Christoph Naumova: Fear is a powerful weapon and it garters respect from certain groups and clusters of people that benefitted me at the time. Was I going to do it? No. Do I think I could've? No. Did it get you worried for a little bit and have the effect intended? Yes, but only for about a month before you realized it was a bluff and I wasn't going to do anything, then you made those awesome VG Lawyers that I bought from the operations vendor.

[21:01] Christoph Naumova: So to summarize, sorry about those threats and trying to get in your head in that mannerism back then. Again, it was accepted practice and miltiaries never sat down to 'speak' about the problems in that day and age. People just didn't listen since we were all growing and felt undefeatable at current.

[21:02] Dagger Exonar: Does MC get a chair?

[21:02] Jim Herbst: how is MC even RELEVANT?

[21:03] Christoph Naumova: Another thing to point out is I'm not going to ask for apologies nor ask for specific events of what happened towards me to be tossed out there - I know a lot of it was related to you and you didn't object to it but you didn't have a direct hand in what happened. To be honest, I did malicious things to people so when they did them back to me I clapped, I don't hold grudges for anything and I understand why people did what they did.

[21:03] Lurdan Huszar: How is MC -

[21:03] Dagger Exonar: Same was Jim or Sukasa is, at least in my eyes.

[21:04] Jim Herbst: alright then, I suppose MC could get a seat for this then

[21:04] Christoph Naumova: If you'd like to settle that whole year of drama and massive issues on both sides, Lurdan, I'm willing to shake your hand and say we both screwed up, lets learn from our mistakes and not act childishly again at any point in the future.

[21:04] Jim Herbst: I just supposed that since MC is not part of the blockade their participation in this meeting would be moot

[21:04] Lurdan Huszar: Sure Christoph.

[21:04] Jim Herbst: Unless Balaster would like to correct me.

[21:05] Proteus Hand: He's still a cool guy.

[21:05] Dagger Exonar: I thought this was about VG and IS relations and not specificly the blockade, as Intlibber has already damned that sort of thing.

[21:05] Christoph Naumova: I mean the biggest thing I've come to understand is you're a decent guy. We may disagree on a few things and we've had a few spats in the past but I've always awkwardly considered you a friend on some level - You were what, the 5th person I met in Second Life and we were buddies for two years? Not worth hating permanently over things that should've been prevented.

[21:08] Lurdan Huszar: Alright.

[21:09] Lurdan Huszar: I think we've covered everything that needs to be covered in regards to our history then Christoph.

[21:09] Lurdan Huszar: Now, I noticed that you've been making some changes to Vanguard protocol and training since our last meeting.

[21:09] Lurdan Huszar: Am I correct?

[21:10] Christoph Naumova: Yes and theres new sessions being written that I do not have to encorporate parts of the doctrine, even though we're not apart of it, into the routine.

[21:10] Lurdan Huszar: Alright, tell me about it in detail.

[21:12] Christoph Naumova: I'm not the one writing it, and it's not completed, so I cannot run you through it just yet. However, I did tell my organizers to stress the "No tolerance" policy on malicious intent and post the fair combat ideas of the doctrine itself.

[21:12] Christoph Naumova: Once all the necessary documentation is completed within the next 24 hours, I'll be more then happy to drop everything onto you for you to review and give ideas on if you'd like.

[21:12] Lurdan Huszar: Alright.

[21:13] Christoph Naumova: I've actually got a question I'd like to ask Aryte, if acceptable

[21:13] Ruin Nefarious: Yes?

[21:14] Christoph Naumova: Actually I think this is more of an IM's thing and I do not want it to boil over into chat. I may be in the right to ask but the mannerism I chose to do it originally isn't acceptable. I'd like to speak to you about it later.

[21:15] Ruin Nefarious: Ookay.

[21:16] Christoph Naumova: If theres any other questions or anything you believe we should cover right now, I'm all ears and willing to do so.

[21:17] Jim Herbst: I got a question

[21:17] Christoph Naumova: Sure thing, Jim

[21:17] Jim Herbst: why are you wearing Victoria's Secret wings?

[21:18] Christoph Naumova: Makes it easier to court people by showing off my georgous colors.

[21:18] Jim Herbst: black and grey?

[21:18] Christoph Naumova: I like them. So do a lot of armies!

[21:18] Jim Herbst: and your shoulder is an electrical shock hazard.. and ... and..

[21:18] Jim Herbst: YOUR UNIFORM MAKES NO SENSE

[21:18] Lurdan Huszar: Let's move on.

[21:19] Lurdan Huszar: Christoph, is there anything you'd like to tell us at this point?

[21:19] Lurdan Huszar: We're finished with our questions for now I believe.

[21:19] Dagger Exonar: Brb changing my passwords on everything

[21:21] Christoph Naumova: Aside from the question I have for Aryte after this, I do not - I believe we've covered everything of merit and the mutual agreeance to put the childish actions behind and apologize is more than fair enough.

[21:24] Lurdan Huszar: Alright, I believe that's all then. Tommorrow at our Kommissariat meeting, I will discuss the prospect of some sort of controlled probationary period with Vanguard we can progress into. The meeting we have next week Christoph, will likely be about the details of this period - how we're going to go about it.

[21:24] Christoph Naumova: That'll be great. Do you want to set a time this weekend so people have foresight into what they're doing later on in the week?

[21:24] Lurdan Huszar: That's just what the Merczateers will be doing, I'm not speaking for the Ordo or AN.

[21:25] Lurdan Huszar: Yeah, how does Sunday at 1PM work for you?

[21:25] Christoph Naumova nods. "In which case I can speak to you about it in person over the next few days for anything that needs to be touched up or discussed that wasnt table worthy."

[21:25] Jim Herbst: we're going to follow the Merczateer's lead at first then go from there.

[21:25] Christoph Naumova: SLT? That will work.

[21:25] Lurdan Huszar: Alright.

[21:26] Ruin Nefarious: We'll observe and see how it proceeds.

[21:26] Lurdan Huszar: K, I think that's it then Christoph.

[21:27] Christoph Naumova: Well I appreciate you all showing up and I appreciate the babysteps we're making

[21:28] Christoph Naumova: If any of you need anything in person or via IM/Notecard works.

[Guest Ruin Nefarious]

Page break 2.

[Aryte]

Dear Aryte,

Alright, so the thing I wanted to talk to you about and decided not to speak about publically was the shit you had your frumentarii do to VG (Granted Daggers in my command now, I know almost *everything*, speech about making me cry, etc). I decided that sure, I could've called you on it publically and asked for an apology and everything, and used the fact that it was public to get a point across but I'm not like that anymore. I decided to ask you face to face exactly what the motivation behind it was. That whole meeting was about malicious intentions without proper reason or extreme overreacting, and by all means all I've done to Ordo was allow a few motivational posters and talk shit to people in my group. I just want to know *your* justification for what happened and I want to hear *your* reason for why you ordered such things and then threw a party claiming responsibility for the destruction of my group.

The thing is, I don't really want you to repent or really care about what happened. I just think it was one of those things that should've been brought up at the meeting that I had the decency not to do with all the bullshit that is already on your plate, and your words about "Two years is long enough" as a reason not to. I literally pooled through my IM logs, chat, and everything else I had for the past two years and couldn't come up with *any* malicious physical action I did to your group; Heck, I even had people ASK me why I left you alone and it was simply because you did the same to me.

The fact of the matter is I'm treating you like an adult and not dragging this entire incident into the public for argumentative discussion because it'll leave a sour taste in your mouth. I know you've disbanned frumentarii as of what, 12 hours ago, so I'm not going to even be tempted to do that - I'm being decent enough by still being courteus even though I *know* your answer to the blockades from the shit Keno and other ordo have given me (You've decided it isnt happening, even after stating 'you're open to discussion' before discussions even started) and I'm just asking you give the same respect in this situation.

Truth be told, Aryte, I'm not a vindictive man, I do not hold grudges and I certainly do not do things that are not justifiable on some level to other individuals. Propaganda wars are worthy of propaganda wars, not group dethroning. Now if you'd be so kind to sit down and talk with me on a face to face level, as people, not leaders, I'll be more than happy to do so just as I did with Lurdan on the sidelines to get this shit sorted out.

You can go off the record on an alt nobody knows about, a day old for all I care, then go back to playing leader and upholding your public image - I just dislike being bullshitted and as you stated shit needs to be sorted out.

This isn't a threat, nor is ANY CONTEXT OF IT SUGGUESTING TO BE SO. I'm looking for answers, not a circus show - Know that well.

- Christoph Naumova

P.S - Do feel free to respond in world to this or if you'd like to on an alt to speak about it. I'm just tired of the twosidedness and knowing whats really going on while people assume me to be a fool. Doesn't take alts to find these things out, just friends. Thanks.

I replied.

>> The Ordo Imperialis

>> Re: To Aryte - From Naumova

Christoph,

Ours is a relationship that extends well into 2006; one that is curious and marked with a long stint of silence. However, hardly one that's without precedence and disdain. You are correct. The Merczateers have a lot more to complain about in regards to actual acts committed against their entity. The Ordo, however, has its share of displeasure.

Now, to begin, let's touch on the extent of Frumentarii involvement in meddling with your organization. At no time did we throw parties or take responsibility for the destruction of Vanguard. In fact, we had very little hand in any assault on your structural integrity. The "Snowmew" junk was Takkun Gray, under the Merczateers flag. The region and otherwise were Uildiar Kuhn, under the Merczateers flag. Our stake to claim is only in the recruitment of Tandem Destiny and Zrazor Rozenstrauch. Any other insinuation comes directly by claim of Dagger Exonar, who at many time(s) made the accusation that he had a hand in VG's death. Prior to that, the only other "attack" the Ordo could be credited to would be Grave Irata destroying your (or rather, his) space station before resigning.

When you suggest that you had reason to stand up and demand some sort of apology of me, I assure you I would've told you where to stick it. You are not the bigger man by deciding to take this off channel and write me a letter. Nor are you sparing me any trouble by being 'merciful' by not bringing it up at the meeting. You acknowledge in your second sentence your source of supposed intent against Vanguard comes from Dagger Exonar-- the same individual who claimed you weren't in command of Vanguard and just a figurehead. The same guy you recruited to be K-2, after he used to run about offending Zrazor by claiming he destroyed Vanguard.

When you approached me, I genuinely was interested in the prospect of discussions. As were the entirety of my officer cadre and associated command. The Ordo has made a great effort in communication with all levels of enemy-- Chaos included. I was interested because I considered the possibility of "you changed." I bought that story and went for it.

And then you managed to get VG banned from CS, and you claimed Chaos was now "Poland." And then you had Dagger threaten me that you'd "go back to your old ways" until we talked.

You're correct. I will not lift the blockade at this time. I posted the two meeting logs and asked for an anonymous poll to be conducted among my administration. 37 to 0 in favor of upholding the blockade. Several comments were left in regards to "How did these meetings unconvince me to unban them?" To be fair, I agree. I really agree. I am really perplexed as to how Lurdan sat there and let you politic around the issues. You told him what he wanted to hear, half heartedly, and he caved.

I find it hard to believe you have changed drastically in under a month, after years of practice. If Lurdan wants to believe that, all the more power to him. I'll be happy to sit back and see how things go.

As for going off the record and public image-- there's no reason for me to give you a faceless, anonymous reply.

Faith and fire,

Aryte Vesperia

www.ordoimperialis.com