Colt... Seriously? This is your SCAR/HK416 Response?

[Tsume Xiao]

Ok. So williamca sent me the latest Defense Review article about a new Colt rifle that is gunning for the US Military.

First off.

Colt AR-Platform weapons are not the best.

The HK416 and FN Scar-L are far superior (though more expensive).

Colt wanted to step it's game up. They Tried to best out the Masada/ACR*, HK416, HK417, SCAR-L / Mk.17, SCAR-H / Mk.18 in one fell swoop. (* Masada and ACR are NOT the same rifle).

So they came up with a rifle that looks like a standard AR, but with ambidextrous controls. It's called the Colt Modular Carbine Model CM901.

The weapon can change through 4 calibers: 5.56mm NATO, 7.62mm NATO, 6.8 SPC, and 6.5 Grendel.

Changing between the NATO calibers just requires popping the two receiver pins and swapping uppers. This is similar to the Masada/ACR's caliber change capabilities.

Now. Lets look at the HK416.

What was it's major advantage over the AR-15 platform is, among various other things, the gas system. Instead of the Direct Gas Impingement, which plagued the M16 and M4 and the variants, the HK416 uses a more robust piston system.

So here we have this new Colt CM901 that is supposed to beat out the HK400 Series and the FN SCAR series.

Guess what it uses.

Direct Gas Impingement.

Colt. Have you not learned a damn thing?

The most successful assault rifles have all been piston operated. (Rare but Notable exceptions are the GAIT/Nexter FAMAS and the H&K G3 and G3-Derivatives, which use a blowback system)

For those of you who don't understand why this is so silly yet, I assume you are not familiar with the difference in the systems, so I will explain

Piston Operation

This system siphons propellant gas through a port in the barrel to a gas cylinder. This hot, high pressure gas is then used to drive a piston inside the gas cylinder backwards. This piston drives an operating rod. The operating rod drives the bolt carrier backwards, cycling the weapon. Excess gas is vented either back into the barrel, or out through pressure relief ports.

One of the easiest examples of this system is the AK-47 (or any AK really). While I do not like the AK series of weapons, the operating system is in plain view, so it makes a good example.

Above the barrel and connected to the top piece of the hand guard is the gas piston system.

On a better rifle, such as the fabulous M14, the gas system is house below the barrel. On the M14, the operating rod is also visible. It is the sliding bar on the right side of the rifle. Yes, it looks just like the Garand. There is a reason for that.

More modern rifles, such as the G36 (shown below) and the L85A2, the location of the system is house inside a hand guard.

This is a Full-Sized Heckler & Koch G36.

Remember Kids. Just say no to the G36C. :/

Direct Gas Impingement

Like the piston system, this system siphons hot propellant gasses from the barrel through a port. However, instead of a piston and operating rod, the hot gasses are routed back to act directly on the bolt carrier, cycling the action (hopefully).

The main flaw is the main difference. Instead of an operating rod moving the bolt carrier, the hot gasses, and all the fouling and shit contained in them, is spewed directly onto the bolt carrier and all the parts around it. This causes fouling to build up, lubricant to dry out, and parts around the action to be heated.

The fouling and drying of lubricant will lead to problems in the action like jamming, failure to cycle, failure to chamber a new round, and failure to eject a spent casing.

The heating of the action causes significant thermal stress and drastically shorten the life of the part.

An AR patter weapon that has some issues. The extraction seems to have failed on an epic scale. Ask Zrazor about this with his Mk.1 :/

You're doing it wrong. D:

The number of rifles that use this system is roughly three (not counting all the AR variants). Only one of them is still in service, and that is the M16/M4 system and its variants.

So basically...

You have a very silly action being used in what is supposed to contend against the Scar's, HK400's, ACR, and, well anything else piston operated*, for the US troops.

*Except the AK or it's variants. You are right to stay away from those

I am disappoint.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Tsume Xiao

[Trinity Heckroth]

:( BUT BUT BUT

Slap

Pull

Observe

Release

Tap

Squeeze

You cannot has my SPORTS.

[Cyphre Iredell]

Colt was never really a contender, just a manufacturer anyway. Oh snap! It can switch between calibers? :O Oh wait, it could already do that on any number of platforms with any number of various ammunition types by swapping the upper. And any notion of 'easily' swapping (such as not requiring gunsmithing) falls flat on the premise that there is really no reason to swap at will on the field. Sure would be nice to switch to 6.5 Grendel or 6.8SPC.

[Tsume Xiao]

Colt was never really a contender, just a manufacturer anyway. Oh snap! It can switch between calibers? :O Oh wait, it could already do that on any number of platforms with any number of various ammunition types by swapping the upper. And any notion of 'easily' swapping (such as not requiring gunsmithing) falls flat on the premise that there is really no reason to swap at will on the field. Sure would be nice to switch to 6.5 Grendel or 6.8SPC.

Surely you don't mean like the civilian caliber change options like the AR-57 or the .50 Beowolf options?!?

[RazorFox]

:( BUT BUT BUT

Slap

Pull

Observe

Release

Tap

Squeeze

You cannot has my SPORTS.

Yeah, imagine if you didn't have to do SPORTS. Like, ever.

Life would be so much simpler. D:

[Scarlet Flaks]

Yeah, imagine if you didn't have to do SPORTS. Like, ever.

Life would be so much simpler. D:

All weapons are prone to failure. No exceptions.

Besides, It's not like Colt has made anything new and amazing since 1902.

[Tsume Xiao]

Yeah, imagine if you didn't have to do SPORTS. Like, ever.

Life would be so much simpler. D:

YOU WOULD KNOW WOULDN'T YOU?!?!

LLAMA 1911 Clone

Tsume: ."45ACP Is amazing *_*"

*pop*

*pop*

*pop*

*pop*

*click*

"What the fuck?"

*tap & rack*

*pop*

*click*

"Zrazor?"

*mag removed. racked. reloaded*

*pop*

*pop*

*pop*

*slide locks back*

Zrazor: "Oh yeah, this thing has problems ejecting and shit. Ironically if you hold it sideways it works better"

*grabs gun with full magazine*

"Hey Cristoph? You think you a gangster?!?!? Well imma ganster Bitch!

*turns, grabs crotch, holds pistol sideways, unloads magazine while thrusting hips forward in sync with each shot*

Zrazor's Dad from a distance: "What the hell are you doing?"

Ruger Mk.1

Tsume : Wow this is a great little pistol.

*plink*

*plink*

*plink*

*click*

"Zrazor, It didn't extract the casing"

*clear spent casing*

*plink*

*plink*

*stovepipe*

"Zrazor, why is this doing this? Its a fucking Mk.1, not an M16"

*clear spent casing*

*plink*

*double feed & stovepipe*

"Fffffff....."

--Later That Weekend--

Zrazor: Hey Tsume, Remember when we put the Mk.1 back together? I put the extractor in upside-down."

Tsume: "FFFFFfffffffffffffffffff..."

Tantal 5.45

Tsume: Zrazor, the bore on this looks like shit."

Zrazor" Oh... Fuck. I didnt clean it after I used it last"

Tsume: "You fired corrosive ammo, and didn't clean the bore?"

Zrazor: "I had to put it in storage in a hurry. D:"

Tsume: "._."

*insert bore cleaner*

*outcome looks like rusty piss*

***Dramitazation***

Tsume: "Hey Zrazor, the action isn't cycling. Wait. I know why. It cant cycle without the gas from a discharge. And we cant discharge it because you can't find your can of ammo. I am disappoint." :<

<3

Other Memorable Quotes from said weekend

"Hey, can you play guitar?" - Zrazor's Dad's first words to me.

"Whats it like being down here in God's country?" - Zrazor's Dad on Southern Illinois

"Oh! Are you a Jewish?!?" - One of Zrazor's Dad's friends

"Oh we had a Passover Sedar at our church!" - Same friend.

"Dude! Lets put a lighter infront of that and see if it shoots fireballs!" - Rygads, on my propane powered airsoft pistol. It did, in fact, shoot fireballs.

"Fuck! My Keyboard! Fuck! My Beer!"

"Dude! Lets put this condom on Zrazor's face and take a picture! Omg I am posting this on the forums!" - Rygads

"I was going to delete this picture, but No I don't think i will" - Aryte, upon seeing the un-resized, 7.1MP image of Zrazor, sleeping with a condom on his face that was posted by Rygads

"Dude! We could clean this out and smoke from it!" - Rygads

Tsume: Zrazor, these 7.62 mausers have a shit load of powder and just kinda popped open and got everywhere. I accidently missed the tub and got some on the floor. D:" *I was removing slugs from some spare Mauser cartridges.*

Zrazor: "Dude lets light some of it on fire?" *lighter clicks* "FUCK THE CARPETING!"

Tsume: "Why would you do that?"

Zrazor: "I didn't think it would burn so fast"

Tsume: "Hey Zrazor, this airsoft Mk.1 takes down just like the real one!"

Zrazor: "No way."

*two disassembled pistols later*

"That's awesome!"

*One assembled airsoft pistol later"

"Fuck I cant get this thing back together"

*several instructional videos later*

"Finally D:"

Once again Zrazor: <3

All weapons are prone to failure. No exceptions.

Besides, It's not like Colt has made anything new and amazing since 1902.

1911? (though it was designed by Browning, they just manufactured it in it's first form)

[Mickel Reed]

Switching calibers at will would be more practical if it didn't require exchanging parts. Not that you normally scavenge ammo in the field IRL, but don't you just hate it when you play STALKER and you have to carry two submachineguns around because if you only carry the one that uses 9mm Parabellum, you are guaranteed to only come across 9mm Makarov ammo and vice versa. RAGE!

[Kellervo]

Why on earth would you use the Viper-5s in ANY of the STALKERs... well, maybe in Call of Pripyat when you can acquire the .45 ACP one.

I personally don't see the use in changing caliber mid-battle. Unless it was literally as simple as changing barrels, it'd take too much valuable time and leave you too vulnerable.

[Tsume Xiao]

Switching calibers at will would be more practical if it didn't require exchanging parts. Not that you normally scavenge ammo in the field IRL, but don't you just hate it when you play STALKER and you have to carry two submachineguns around because if you only carry the one that uses 9mm Parabellum, you are guaranteed to only come across 9mm Makarov ammo and vice versa. RAGE!

Why on earth would you use the Viper-5s in ANY of the STALKERs... well, maybe in Call of Pripyat when you can acquire the .45 ACP one.

I personally don't see the use in changing caliber mid-battle. Unless it was literally as simple as changing barrels, it'd take too much valuable time and leave you too vulnerable.

It is not possible to change "calibers" without switching parts in almost all weapons. I say "calibers" because you have to change parts to change cartidges, even if the cartidge is the same caliber (example: .30-06, 7.62x51, 7.62x39)

Revolvers and some .22 rifles are able to do this because of the different chamber depths, and some shotguns can also do this. However, they don't change caliber, but rather change the actual cartridge.

Changing calibers on this, for the NATO chamberings, is just swapping out the upper.

Video games mean nothing.

If you are using a 9x19mm Beretta 92FS and need ammo and find a Glock 17 on the ground, the ammo inside the Glock 17 is worthless to you because you need to remove it from the magazine, hope you have an empty magazine for your Beretta, and then fill up your magazine. Not something you can do in combat.

The only weapons that can really do the video game style "Hey I found some ammo!" would be weapons that use the same magazine,

For example, the STANAG specified magazine for 5.56x45mm rounds is the same magazine that fits into Any M16 variant (in 5.56), the F2000, the FN SCAR-L, the F2000, the IWI Tavor, the Nexter FAMAS G2, the HK416, the Chinese QBZ-Series (in 5.56), the Enfield SA-80 series, I think some of the 5.56Nato AK's, and.... well.... you get the point.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of a handful of 5.56NATO rifles that don't use the STANAG mag well. Those are the G36 series, the AUG series, the Galil series (though it can use an adapter), and the old Famas F1.

[Trinity Heckroth]

Video games mean nothing.

I disagree.

[Mickel Reed]

You can always build a weapon that's capable of, say, using both your standard magazine and the enemy standard magazine. You don't want to use a weapon an enemy has dropped, but their magazines should be okay. The Sten is one of the more famous examples, I think.

I remember reading somewhere that the USSR used 82 mm mortar rounds so that they could use the 81 mm mortar rounds they captured from the enemy, but not the other way round. Sneaky!

[Cyphre Iredell]

You can always build a weapon that's capable of, say, using both your standard magazine and the enemy standard magazine. You don't want to use a weapon an enemy has dropped, but their magazines should be okay. The Sten is one of the more famous examples, I think.

Not really, unfortunately. If I recall, Knight's Armament attempted an SR-47, intended to be able to use AK magazines on the standard AR platform. However, they came to find that above and beyond sloppy tolerances on the magazines themselves, there was a considerable variation between one country's magazines from another (or rather, their origin of manufacture). Even with the current M4/M16 platform, I wouldn't count on being able to use the H&K-made magazines manufactured for the British L85 (lawl metric) to fit without question.

[Tsume Xiao]

You can always build a weapon that's capable of, say, using both your standard magazine and the enemy standard magazine. You don't want to use a weapon an enemy has dropped, but their magazines should be okay. The Sten is one of the more famous examples, I think.

I remember reading somewhere that the USSR used 82 mm mortar rounds so that they could use the 81 mm mortar rounds they captured from the enemy, but not the other way round. Sneaky!

The Sten was specifically made that way, and both designs were heavy war production models (sloppy and cheap).

As for Enemy magazine, you assume that they have the same caliber weapon (again, most 5.56 NATO weapons use the STANAG, but most of the "enemies" dont use NATO) and it is a good quality mag. You wouldnt want a garbage magazine anywhere near your primary weapon. 30 rounds of ammo isnt worth your weapon breaking.

[Agares Tretiak]

Further more, you would think a modern, well equipped military has the appropriate foresight and capability to maintain combat related logistics, such as supplying troops with the appropriate amounts of ammo that they use...

The only people who might need to 'forage' for ammo and weapons are special operations forces running deep in enemy territory where logistics may be nearly impossible to use. Even then... motherfuckin' Air Force Combat Controllers or just equipping them with a set of weapons the enemy utilizes. Problem solved. No fancy stuff, no extra-bits to haul around and switch out, lot less likely to lose a part, no possibility of you messing it up, and only finding out later.

[Jayce Iredell]

I lol at how civilians get into tirades over firearms they don't own or, will never use on a regular day to day basis. Gunau would probably shit a gold brick if he saw this thread.

[Cyphre Iredell]

You say that as if the military is absolutely the only organization in existence that deals in firearms! Sadly, your average soldier doesn't know nearly enough about the hunk of plastic, aluminum, and/or steel in their hands...

[Jayce Iredell]

But does it really matter, I mean really; why start a debate about something so inconsequential?

[Trinity Heckroth]

Well, because it's interesting! What would you rather start a debate about?

[Acheron Gloom]

Well, because it's interesting! What would you rather start a debate about?

A debate about what we should debate about.

I will be the master debater.

[Tsume Xiao]

But does it really matter, I mean really; why start a debate about something so inconsequential?

If you don't like the thread, then don't comment. It's that simple.

Some of us are talking about things we like to discuss.

You obviously don't care about it, so please, don't comment and start drama.

[Agares Tretiak]

Jayce lives in a country where they have much stricter firearms controls, and thus may not appreciate how I can, in fact, obtain a milspec assault rifle, with the appropriate steps taken and taxes payed.

[RazorFox]

I disagree.

TEH DEAGLE

[Lanny Ansar]

I heard the Bushmaster ACR was capable of swapping uppers to support the 7.62x39 AK47 cartridge. (Apparently for "Special Operations" purposes, so they leave a smaller footprint on the field.) But it still leaves the issue with having to reload all of your empty mags because the standard Steel AK mags don't fit in anything else -besides- an AK.

And Tsume's correct about the Masada / ACR. The original Magpul Masada had an upper reciever where the charging handle was near the ejector port. The ACR was redesigned to have the handle way farther up by the barrel, and on the left side (So you can rack the bolt while keeping a steady aim and hand on the trigger).

Also, there are certainly AK variants that use standard 5.56mm NATO, but they aren't traditional russian. Standard Russian AK's use 5.45mm (AK-74 and its variants.) On the other hand, the one AK copy i've used and rather enjoyed comfortably was the Romanian SAR3, but the original models were (Mostly) confiscated by the ATF for the tendency to "Accidentally" pump out a 3-round burst, when made to only fire in Semi.

[Cyphre Iredell]

Partially correct: Previous attempts at using 'field magazines' with such prototypes as the SR-47 (using the same gas system as every other armalite) has forgone the notion that AK's from different countries are not built to the same speciifcations. In current conditions, for instance, the Iraqi fielded Tabuk definitely contains no Russian parts, and no other AK magazine would necessarily fit the same pattern rifle; whether by fitment in the mag-well, a mag seating properly, or being able to cycle the next round due to magazine height. At best, being able to swap the upper and subsequent mag-well for special cases would simply provide the ability to chamber a different cartridge, magazines entirely dependent upon the user.

Of course, that isn't really that big of a deal considering what can be done with AR upper receivers in the world. A wide array of munitions also fit relatively well through the same mag-well.