Discussion of Chat included in Combat Gestures

[Reinhardt]

tl;dr version: Rein thinks too much and should likely have his forum posting privs revoked...

REAL version follows...

We all use gestures to control certain aspects of our combat.

Drawing, reloading, throwing a grenade, dropping a barricade, breaching, etc.

ART has been codifying many aspects of communication for us. One cross over between the two topics I've found, and one sticking point of confusion I've had.. is grenades.

My throw grenade gesture, I include the local chat output of "FRAG out".. as we are supposed to announce when throwing a grenade. I have found when we announce it in vent, it is often drown out and not heard, or drowns other necessary communications out. Further, EVERYONE on our team hears it, including those who are nowhere near the location the frag was thrown from, and thus, hearing such is just potential for more confusion. So I combatted this by creating local chat so team members can be aware of it, as they need to be.

Someone poitned out today... such chat, can serve as warning to enemies. And this got me thinking. And I think this is something that can be debated.

When throwing a frag, I can often toss it MUCH further than chat range. And for those who set their timers differently, or make it bouncy, hell, why would chat range need to be worried about? BUT the person I was discussing this with, did indicate it was chat-spammy. And I can agree with that fact. It was recomended that I use a sound file. Although on thinking about this, sound files in a combat gesture.. add lag to everyone in sim who has to download it when I throw a grenade, then lets ANYONE hear it regardless of chat range if they have their gesture volume up high enough, allies who DONT have gesture sounds on wont hear it at all, defeating the purpose of the FRAG out signal as ART teaches us.

Oh and least important of these issues... while I was provided over a dozen sound files for substitution into my gesture so I could remove the text, all of them said GRENADE, not FRAG... which according to ART, is for incomming grenades thrown at us, not for grenades we are throwing out.

So I can leave the words in the gesture... and risk alerting nearby enemies (but if you are using a grenade on enemies in close proximity to you, I feel thats just a MISTAKE) and you risk chat spamming allies if you are throwing grenades repeatedly.

OR I can take the words out of the gesture... but need to then find some other way to communicate the thrown grenade via...

- sound file in the gesutre.. which can cause lag, be classified as sound spam according to our regulations, be heard by anyone with the right volume settings ANYWHERE in sim, and be missed by allies who have the wrong volume settings.

- announcing it over vent, and risk confusing everyone in vent at the time, risk drowning out other more important communications, and risk being drown out by other communications when allies nearby to me need to be alerted.

SO the point I want to put up for discussion is this.

I have as many reasons to include "FRAG out!" in my throw grenade gesture as I have AGAINST it. What are the thoughts of our community here in Ordo on this topic, particularly from Command, and from those who have taken ART classes?

[Aryte]

Mmmmm. I am a proponent of silence. Salutes included. But I haven't been so tyrannical to police what people use for grenades/salutes/etc.

[Tsukiyomi Yuhara]

To retort with my opinion on the matter. Calling out an indication such as 'frag out' is helpful in some situations, such as: Clearing a room, CQC situations, or when taking ground. However in a situation such as holding ground, it's relatively pointless (IMO). For example, your chucking grenades into the red zone, Warning allies does no good as there's very little reason they should be hit by said grenades. However SW needs to be retaken, you open the door and chuck a nade while people breach into it, yea, no bueno.

As far as sounds causing lag. It's minor at best, and for people like me who find them annoying, gestures make no noise. Though, sound travels a LOT farther than chat. Thus the warning falls for both. As for chat spam, Don't throw grenades that often? There's not a lot of reason to litter an area with explosives. Now, as for the actual act of calling out grenades being thrown.. Pay attention to your surroundings.. Situational awareness is you friend. Just saying, it has it's place, just don't think that place is on the defensive line(IMO).

In my personal opinion on the matter, use sounds. This way people who find them annoying can disable them/turn them down. Also, about the chat version, people in chat range see the '/1 grenade'. So unless you use a '/52 gesture' it's not worth the chat lines.

[Reinhardt]

I personaly use /204020 throwgrenade so ALL they see, is "FRAG out" in local chat. Nothing else.

[George Reisman]

I don't really see the big deal here. To be honest, I didn't even know we're supposed to announce a grenade throw.

[Krow Ames]

Someone poitned out today... such chat, can serve as warning to enemies. And this got me thinking. And I think this is something that can be debated.

Let it. A grenade isn't meant to be used as a weapon for killing. It's a tool to flush people out of cover. If they don't move, the grenade gets them. If they do move, bullets get them. Rock and a hard place. If they hear the grenade warning, that's just fine. It has a certain effect on the mind of the enemy. Anyway, a grenade is a tool, not a weapon.

[Scarlet Flaks]

Last I recall, when throwing a grenade, an audible thrown sound occurs of which anyone within range can hear, as well as a bleep when we can throw another grenade. These are both warning enough for friendly's aswell as enemies. However, Perhaps someone working on the new HUD should clarify whether or not these will return with the new HUD.

[Reinhardt]

All these votes saying that "FRAG out" isnt needed in a grenade throwing gesture... makes me begin to wonder why it is included in the ART doccumentation at all then if so many people think announcing it at all is unnecessary. I WOULD think it was just people who haven't taken the course/thoroughly read the information (there is alot.. I reread it every few days and still find things I missed)... except.. *eyes the Imperator.., who WROTE hte damn course* YEP now I'm confused.

Told in one place to announce it... told in another NOT to. And people wonder why I detpack myself.. lol

[George Reisman]

I graduated phase 1, your point is?

[Reinhardt]

Okay delayed response cause I had to think about it and NOT be asleep when I wrote it...

Aryte...

In the ART course, you say that the throwgrenade action should be announced. And most people do this in vent. BUT even when vent is kept to ART-compliant communications only... I have seen several situations where the purpose of the announcement fails.

It can be easily drown out, or drown out, other communications like enemy movements, orders, downed-calls, etc. IE things that need to be known to the entire group.

And in many ways, the localized nature of grenades means the ENTIRE group does not need to know about them as this can, at the wrong time, potentialy confuse alot of people who are now looking for said grenade. So in that regard, a local chat announcement, for the troops working nearest you, is the smartest choice of ways to announce the grenade. And since aiming your camera up a little bit as you slap your grenade gesture can fling the thing MUCH further than 20 meters, its not like it will warn the enemy, BUT like Krow says, the purpose of a grenade is its terror and herding abilities so announcing it for the enemy to hear. As well, I've noticed on the east road, that most of the regular defenders there with me, when an EI takes cover and I run forward to fling a grenade, as I smack my gesture, and the chat announcement goes out, frequently those with me will smack their gesture at the same time, the announcemnt serving, I guess unintendedly, as a coordinating rally cry on a local scale.

So two simple commands in the gesture.. chat output: /204020 throwgrenade and chat output: FRAG out!

I dont see that as spammy per se, when even allies near you will only see the ONE line, which would be the same one line if I was instead using ONLY /1 throwgrenade

[Altus Nirvana]

Let it. A grenade isn't meant to be used as a weapon for killing. It's a tool to flush people out of cover.

Its ment for killing people behind cover. Thats just an added bonus lol

As for call out, I only do it in a tactical situation. If im on defense tossing into the red zone I wont because there shouldnt be any freindly there, plus this would cause unessesary blurts in communication if you had a handful of people doing this with the popularity of grenade throwing. On a raid however where there is no such zone, I will announce the throw-to location if freindlys are nearby for both frag,flash and 203 rounds. "Fraging SE door" "Flashing NE trench" "203ing West bridge" no need to be complicated, all 3 are something for both teams to avoid being near.

[Esva]

personally i have two gestures, one is the normal nade throw with no announcement, after all if there are no friendlies ahead of you, they don't need to know its coming and negates their chance of using a dodgeroller ect to get out of the way , and my other one is for throwing nades with friendlies near, it calls out "Frag" and has a 2 second delay so the friendlies around know to get out of the way and gives me an extra second to aim the nade before I throw it out

[Krow Ames]

Even if it's an added bonus, Altus, why does it matter if the enemy hears it or not? You're going to achieve one of the desired effects. They either leave their cover and get destroyed, or remain on the grenade and get destroyed.

[George Reisman]

My grenade says, "Yo dick, what's popin' homeboy?"

[Altus Nirvana]

Altus, why does it matter if the enemy hears it or not?

"excuse me combatant, but I hereby announce a grenade volley to your position!"

[Krow Ames]

And they either move out of their cover and get killed or take the grenade to the face and get killed.

[Ookamiwulf Lemton]

Alright this is good for people who dont have mic, ON THE OTHER HAND PEOPLE WHO HAVE MIC SHOULD SAY IT ON VOICE in ventrillo

[George Reisman]

I disagree. Vent is usuallt already cluttered with talk, and saying it over Vent just makes the environment more cluttered. You can talk all you want about combat pertinence, but that shit just usually doesn't happen. Not to mention the sheer amount of grenades that go out...

[Eriksson Foxtrot]

I AGREE. "HEY GUYS, GRENADE OUT."

It would sound like there is a motherFfffing Navy Seal trainee in my house to all of my neighbours as I would yell it. Ffff YEAH.

[Altus Nirvana]

And they either move out of their cover and get killed or take the grenade to the face and get killed.

and eitherway a grenade was ment to get someone killed

[Tsume Xiao]

You are not only over-thinking this, but your listing of alternatives shows a heavy bias.

You do nothing but point out how supposedly bad the alternatives are, indicating you are not asking so much as attempting to persuade that a chat command is the only solution.

Chat: Can be read 20m away. Can be very delayed in high latency. Can get on people's nerves quite quickly, especially with the frequency grenades can be thrown.

Sound: Can theoretically be heard by anyone in a wider area, but at varying volumes. If someone has their stuff adjusted, chances are over all the gunfire they wont hear it. As with any part of a gesture, it can be delayed in high latency. If it is some obnoxious sound, it can get on peoples nerves, especially with the frequency grenades can be thrown.

Vent: Only heard by Ordo. Independent of latency. But if you sit there and call out every grenade you throw, you just further add to the often miserable clusterFfff that is our combat-laden Ventrillo.

---BEST SOLUTION---

Clear out your gesture entirely and remember the following:

- Your HUD already has a sound for the throw action. It is not very loud, but people close to you can hear it.

- The new HUD's grenades have a metallic bounce. This will alert allies if something should land near them (assuming you are cool and using a 3 second fuse instead of contact).

- Only announce your action on Ventrillo if you are surrounded by allies who should really be made aware. If you are off along in a corner, maybe with one other, its just added noise to announce things.

- You do not have to throw a grenade just because it is ready.

- Tactics are your friends. Using a grenade to clear a room by popping it into the doorway? Dont just say "Frag out", say "Frag and clear". Vocalizations like that tell people what you are doing and where the grenade is going. For example, if I say "Cooling towers, Frag and clear", prior to opening the door and tossing in a greande, people on vent know "Ok, someone is throwing a grenade into the cooling towers". Now they don't have to ask anything else. If it is a location we can enter, they also know to rush in after the grenade. (Thats the "clear" part.)

[Anlysia Gregoire]

You can also Whisper instead of Say. Whisper only has a 5m range, so unless you're standing on top of someone nobody else will hear it.

[Deadmon]

You can also Whisper instead of Say. Whisper only has a 5m range, so unless you're standing on top of someone nobody else will hear it.

which somewhat defeats the purpose of saying it. I personally dont think its necessary, everyone wears the hud, most people wear the radio. Its pretty common to see "(channel 1) Joe Shmoe - g "

besides, you the whole point of calling it out is to make sure there is no friendly fire, but most of that is more on you to watch your fire direction and your minimap to make sure you arent clearing a room of friendlies. Yes, its more RL tactical, but its also unnecessary by SL tactics

vent already has issues (sometimes) with combat clarity, and I think a bunch of people saying "frag out" would only worsen it, especially with heavy combat its hard to pinpoint WHERE thats going out, aswell if people were to do as tsume said and go "frag and clear, cooling towers" while thats alot more clear its not super necessary, and will only be talking over someone who needs a medic, or is calling for assistance to an area. In my opinion vent combat info is more about what needs done, rather than what is being done. Medic tp, backup to one area, OIC sending orders / redirecting fire. ect. When people go on about what they are doing, rather than what the team needs done, it tends to get more cluttered.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Disembodied Hand

[Altus Nirvana]

You are not only over-thinking this, but your listing of alternatives shows a heavy bias.

You do nothing but point out how supposedly bad the alternatives are, indicating you are not asking so much as attempting to persuade that a chat command is the only solution.

Chat: Can be read 20m away. Can be very delayed in high latency. Can get on people's nerves quite quickly, especially with the frequency grenades can be thrown.

Sound: Can theoretically be heard by anyone in a wider area, but at varying volumes. If someone has their stuff adjusted, chances are over all the gunfire they wont hear it. As with any part of a gesture, it can be delayed in high latency. If it is some obnoxious sound, it can get on peoples nerves, especially with the frequency grenades can be thrown.

Vent: Only heard by Ordo. Independent of latency. But if you sit there and call out every grenade you throw, you just further add to the often miserable clusterFfff that is our combat-laden Ventrillo.

---BEST SOLUTION---

Clear out your gesture entirely and remember the following:

- Your HUD already has a sound for the throw action. It is not very loud, but people close to you can hear it.

- The new HUD's grenades have a metallic bounce. This will alert allies if something should land near them (assuming you are cool and using a 3 second fuse instead of contact).

- Only announce your action on Ventrillo if you are surrounded by allies who should really be made aware. If you are off along in a corner, maybe with one other, its just added noise to announce things.

- You do not have to throw a grenade just because it is ready.

- Tactics are your friends. Using a grenade to clear a room by popping it into the doorway? Dont just say "Frag out", say "Frag and clear". Vocalizations like that tell people what you are doing and where the grenade is going. For example, if I say "Cooling towers, Frag and clear", prior to opening the door and tossing in a greande, people on vent know "Ok, someone is throwing a grenade into the cooling towers". Now they don't have to ask anything else. If it is a location we can enter, they also know to rush in after the grenade. (Thats the "clear" part.)

All of this

[Tsume Xiao]

You can also Whisper instead of Say. Whisper only has a 5m range, so unless you're standing on top of someone nobody else will hear it.

Not from a gesture. There is only one choice. (Unless it is now an option on newer clients?)

Also, for Ffffs sake people need to stop using and stop handing out the "/1" version of the gestures

"/204020 throwgrenade"

Do not use the channel one version until the option to turn off that listen is added. Even then, you are safer with the stupid high channel.