Winning and Losing: The Musical

[Mark Karlfeldt]

This thread has steadily derailed from my original point. Let me put it back on track.

I have nothing against the number of members we use on defense or offence - SL combat should be fun, and being forced to sit on the sidelines with your thumb up your ass isn't fun. But when we have thirty defenders facing down five attackers, it becomes extremely difficult to justify elevating those thirty personnel to heavy weapons, armour or bombers, unless the attackers pull something out which gives them an extraordinarily unfair advantage - such as, yes, unkillable tanks (which are against our rules anyway and warrant a swift admin smackdown). However, if the attackers manage to make headway without resorting to such bullshit, that becomes our own onus, and I don't see any reason to smack down the big stick in response. That's essentially punishing them for our own mistakes.

This same principle goes for offensive operations, even if the specific situations change. Numbers are often more equal, and combat frequently devolves rapidly into trading superweapons, or even enduring estate administrator abuse. There comes a line where the silently agreed-upon rules of combat are thrown out the window. I have nothing against the use of extreme force in these instances - where the opponent has proved that they don't care about combat, only for their bruised egos. But if this isn't happening, if they're fighting fair and still holding us back when we're on relatively equal footing - to escalate force to overwhelm them is to punish them for our own mistakes. That's our own bruised egos taking over.

And really, if you're going to compare Second Life to real life in any way, you can stop trying. This isn't real life. This is a virtual simulation of something vaguely resembling real life. The same rules do not apply in any way. If you're going to compare combat in SL to combat in real life, why don't you feel any remorse when you shoot someone's avatar? Why don't you hesitate before you put a virtual bullet in them? Do you feel no guilt for your war crimes?

You cold-blooded murderer.

[Guest Ruin Nefarious]

No guilt felt here. Bring on the bloodshed!

[Marc Gravois]

Perhaps I should better state this. Using george's example you're at your home and you have your 5 family members against 3 robbers. Thats fine, I wouldnt mind that, Titan will always have a large standing army, we are a big group with alot of members. My complaint is when you already have the robbers hog tied is that you call in your extended family to beat them all with bats until they are blooded beyond recognition.

Titan rarely has need to call in extra defenders, if you already have more active defenders than they have attackers, there should be no need to disrupt trainings or raids that may be out to come defend when we should be able to keep the upper hand.

I understand that this is not an FPS, and I do not play it because I feel that it is one. The discrepancy in used gear as well as in the difficulty of obtaining objectives often dictates the numbers required that would be "fair" to claim those objectives, but their comes a point where things are excessive and so in ordo's case in order to limit that excess you have to either 1. reduce (unacceptable) or not call in (more acceptable) unneeded numbers or 2. limit the gear that these numbers can use. As you have all stated quite clearly 1. is not much of an option usually (but is sometimes) because we want everyone to have fun, so you have to go with Mark's suggestion of 2. using less powerful stuff.

[Reinhardt]

Why play a game, if you arent aiming to win as a secondary goal?

Military endeavours you have winnign as a primary goal. Sports and gaming, it is secondary. With fun as first.

SO why would we allow loosing to become a goal at all? Keep fun as our primary goal. Like we do. Keep winning as a secondary goal. Like we do.

This translates to.."it aint broke. so dont fix it"

[Guest Afevis]

I understand that this is not an FPS, and I do not play it because I feel that it is one. The discrepancy in used gear as well as in the difficulty of obtaining objectives often dictates the numbers required that would be "fair" to claim those objectives, but their comes a point where things are excessive and so in ordo's case in order to limit that excess you have to either 1. reduce (unacceptable) or not call in (more acceptable) unneeded numbers or 2. limit the gear that these numbers can use. As you have all stated quite clearly 1. is not much of an option usually (but is sometimes) because we want everyone to have fun, so you have to go with Mark's suggestion of 2. using less powerful stuff.

That's why we have light, medium, and heavy.

[Guest Ruin Nefarious]

It is regulation. Defense is first priority. If the OIC determines he or she needs more bodies, then you stop what you're doing and get it done. Whether or not they needed more people is negligible. It's a codified duty. Additionally, in many cases, combat simply attracts. For example "hostile in spawn" mentioned on TS3. The folks who thrive off it get out on to the field and make it happen. As do the folks who follow the regulation to the T.

[Huttser]

This same principle goes for offensive operations, even if the specific situations change. Numbers are often more equal, and combat frequently devolves rapidly into trading superweapons, or even enduring estate administrator abuse. There comes a line where the silently agreed-upon rules of combat are thrown out the window. I have nothing against the use of extreme force in these instances - where the opponent has proved that they don't care about combat, only for their bruised egos. But if this isn't happening, if they're fighting fair and still holding us back when we're on relatively equal footing - to escalate force to overwhelm them is to punish them for our own mistakes. That's our own bruised egos taking over.

And really, if you're going to compare Second Life to real life in any way, you can stop trying. This isn't real life. This is a virtual simulation of something vaguely resembling real life. The same rules do not apply in any way. If you're going to compare combat in SL to combat in real life, why don't you feel any remorse when you shoot someone's avatar? Why don't you hesitate before you put a virtual bullet in them? Do you feel no guilt for your war crimes?

You cold-blooded murderer.

This just demonstrates your lack of experience in offensive combat. Ordo is rarely they force that instigates weapon escalation. The defending / hostile force will more often then not escalate to "super weapons" as you put it, purely because the Ordo is doing so well using light, maybe even medium weapons. Any raid OIC can tell you that more often then not, the moment Ordo arrives, hostile forces escalate to armor, mini guns and aircraft, and if not right off the bat, normally within the first thirty minutes. It is a rare case when we come across a military that doesn't escalate it's weaponry and even rarer where the Ordo initiates the escalation itself.

Yes, I'm fully aware I have a reputation for using excessive force, however I have only escalated to such levels upon legitimate grounds, only after the hostiles have escalated. Honestly, Mark, as Aryte said, I'm not going to dictate to you how to script weapons without knowing what to do, actually go on offenses before you comment on battlefield tactics.

Also you full well know I feel no guilt for my war crimes, deal with it.

[Mark Karlfeldt]

Why play a game, if you arent aiming to win as a secondary goal?

Military endeavours you have winnign as a primary goal. Sports and gaming, it is secondary. With fun as first.

SO why would we allow loosing to become a goal at all? Keep fun as our primary goal. Like we do. Keep winning as a secondary goal. Like we do.

This translates to.."it aint broke. so dont fix it"

This has nothing to do with "losing as a goal". This has to do with "winning becomes so important that it drowns out everything else".

Also, "loosing" refers to something which is coming loose, e.g. a tied knot slipping free. Just wanted to point that out.

[Reinhardt]

Ah sod off. I've always sucked when it comes to lose and loose. LOL.

But you are assuming that we actualy engage in the practices you have outlined. Which is untrue. Solitary and rare individuals do yes. I will admit that. BUT that is an individual issue, and should be processed individualy. your original post though, targeted Ordo procedure as a whole, and Ordo procedure IS what you are arguing on behalf of.

a raid comes to Titan, 5 people.. they bust out a single grenade launcher.. we do NOT immediatel ybump to medium weapons. we maintain light so long as we are maintaining the line. We bump to medium when they either ALL upgrade to grenade launchers, when they are breaking through the lines, OR when their grenade launchers prove to be "spam launchers" and our escelation is to counter. I've seen auth downgraded back to light, more often than I've seen auth bumped to heavy, when on defensive raids. Infact the ONLY times defensively, I've seen heavy or vehicles authorized, is durring training. And that is since I joined in the beginnign of August.

[Tsume Xiao]

Just throwing this out there.

I'm pretty sure this thread was about the escalation of force when said force is not required.

It is not about that we should not escalate force.

[Guest Ruin Nefarious]

Huttser "HEAVY AUTHORIZATION" Ishelwood. You silly boy.

[Huttser]

:>

Genocide? Nah, that's just heavy weaponry

[George Reisman]

[Marc Gravois]

That's why we have light, medium, and heavy.

its not a question of categories, its a question of proper discretion.

It is regulation. Defense is first priority. If the OIC determines he or she needs more bodies, then you stop what you're doing and get it done. Whether or not they needed more people is negligible. It's a codified duty. Additionally, in many cases, combat simply attracts. For example "hostile in spawn" mentioned on TS3. The folks who thrive off it get out on to the field and make it happen. As do the folks who follow the regulation to the T.

Regulations are meant to regulate. If you wish to regulate that few people will ever attack titan because of the nigh impossibility of ever accomplishing anything there, or regulate that trainings should be interrupted so that the participants can sit southwest for an hour while the 3 enemies are busy with the 20 people center as they go through the warehouse all day, then these regulations have met their purpose. However, and forgive that sounding sarcastic as quite honestly I do not wish there to be massive raids on titan (I find raiding more fun than defending), I do feel that perhaps these regulations could use some tweaking.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Marc Gravois

[Agares Tretiak]

Personally...

Proper usage of weapon auths should be taken into account, and procedural recommendations made to official codify standard scenarios in which an upgrade in weapons auth would be "appropriate". While it may seem common sense stuff, we do need it in the books, so we have a way to handle possible abuses, should they ever occur.

TL;DR let's make sure we have some rules that can help clarify the general sort of situation where upping the auth level is a good move, and some where it'd be a BAD move.

[Guest Ruin Nefarious]

It's within your power as an individual to request to return to your duties. Simply ask the OIC "am I needed now?" Nothing needs tweaking.

[Mark Karlfeldt]

This just demonstrates your lack of experience in offensive combat. Ordo is rarely they force that instigates weapon escalation. The defending / hostile force will more often then not escalate to "super weapons" as you put it, purely because the Ordo is doing so well using light, maybe even medium weapons. Any raid OIC can tell you that more often then not, the moment Ordo arrives, hostile forces escalate to armor, mini guns and aircraft, and if not right off the bat, normally within the first thirty minutes. It is a rare case when we come across a military that doesn't escalate it's weaponry and even rarer where the Ordo initiates the escalation itself.

Yes, I'm fully aware I have a reputation for using excessive force, however I have only escalated to such levels upon legitimate grounds, only after the hostiles have escalated. Honestly, Mark, as Aryte said, I'm not going to dictate to you how to script weapons without knowing what to do, actually go on offenses before you comment on battlefield tactics.

Also you full well know I feel no guilt for my war crimes, deal with it.

Log: 13SEP11

Raid Target: CDF (Hazardous)

OIC: Huttser Ishelwood

1825 - Huttser hits a lonewolf with a UAV missile while organising a raid because the defense line was not mustering in time.

1835 - Huttser announces "heavy weapons from the start" before even launching the raid. Attacking Hazardous (CDF).

1836 - Raid deployed. Announces "It's one of my raids, so you know everything is going to be deployed."

1842 - Deploys a Praesidium due to heavy resistance. Probably warranted by the sounds of things.

1846 - Replaces the Praesidium with an autocrat. Announces "This tank is banned in two sims because of me. They can Ffffing ban this one too."

1847 - Repeats "Heavy weapons authorized against the mech, I do not care what you do to bring it down."

1848 - Good progress being made, despite this, heavy weapons and armour is still being used.

1849 - Switches to Tyrant due to the Autocrat "being ineffective against mechs".

1851 - Switches back to Praesidium. An Ordo member (possibly Havoc) uses an unauthorised weapon against CDF, Huttser allows it.

1859 - Reveals he's using both a Comms Pack and a tank at the same time.

1901 - Pulls out an Ultor. Ookami says "Isn't that decommissioned?". Huttser replies with "Not if officers deem it necessary."

1902 - Ookami: "Weapons auth?". Huttser: "Overkill."

1903 - Possibility of aircraft deployment brought up. Huttser considers the idea of deploying a Thantanemesis.

1904 - Thantanemesis deployed. Afevis is the pilot. Hutter: "Bomb the flying Ffff out of them. I'm not pulling stops on this military."

1906 - Huttser tells Havoc to "deploy your weapon" - likely referring to the previously mentioned disallowed weapon.

1908 - Employs new tactic consisting of him tank-charging into the enemy base and distracting enemy infantry.

1911 - Announces an Aegis is also deployed. Huttser: "They have bullshit technology so we have to use our superior skill".

1922 - Orders Ryu (who was holding back due to a numbers rule) to fight, intentionally violating sim rules. Huttser: "You can fight until they bitch about it."

1925 - Almost yells at people to "shut the Ffff up". "SHUT THE - ...". Obviously angry.

1933 - Appears stuck at the last objective.

1935 - Knifes an enemy while in a tank.

1938 - Yells again on Ventrilo to clear comms. Deploys more armour. "I don't care if you get banned in the next five minutes, tie them the Ffff up."

1940 - Final objective captured. Puts an artillery strike on their front door whilst leaving.

[Aryte]

Have you ever raided CDF? They have ultra-mobile mechs that have more HP than our tanks and deploy them en masse. So the use of heavy weapons and tanks is pretty warranted.

[Reinhardt]

The CDF mechs have more armor than our tanks (they have 3 modles of mech, distinctive by color, and I beleive one MIGHT be damage throttled, but for all of them AT weapons are ineffective, the best way to damage them is spamming them with bullets), they are all equiped with move enhancers.. they can all fly at will DESPITE the sim havinga no jetpack rule. they can capture points despite being armored. they are allowed into their tunnels, despite htem throwing fits whenever we get an Aegis into those tunnels. given that the mechs are broken out the MOMENT they see something that isnt infantry, OR the moment you take the 3rd point.. and you realize that you are going to face these thigns NO MATTER WHAT.

and thats just their mechs. Thats NOT getting into their turrets.. which can be deployed anywhere instantly, have 150 health, and they can hop up and then reset for a full and instant repair... while having a machine gun rate of fire and infinite ammo.

so yes.. a CDF raid REQUIRES overkill within their rules. Becuase their default is overkill BREAKING their rules. If we go in with anything less, we might as well not go.

[Kellervo]

To put CDF into perspective, I launched an Admonitor against them, weapons free. The first raid which warranted unrestrained fleet ship bombardment in my entire three years here.

I can understand the concern, and it is something oft repeated or mentioned to me in-world. Unnecessary escalation is a very bad thing, but in many cases there will always be some kind of complicating factor.

[Huttser]

Alright, let's dance.

1825- I did? Don't remember that but okay, mind providing me any proof, since your documenting this so thoroughly?

1835- I authorize medium, not heavy at the start of all my raids, anyone can who's been on my raids can attest to this.

1836- Aye, you probably can, since I only tend to hit targets which put up high levels of resistance

1842- I recommend you lead a raid to CDF yourself, might find out just how much standard CDF infantry and mechs can lock down their bottleneck.

1846- Aye, autocrat was deployed, and aye, I may have said that, guess what It's pretty much true, opps, I'm sorry. Not the first time I've said it.

1847- Again, fight CDFs mechs, we need everything in our arsenal

1848- CDF mechs still on the field, withdrawing assets at this time would have brought us back to square one

1849- Autocrat AT wasn't working on CDF Mechs, Tyrant deployed as alternate, testing the waters with all armored assets.

1851- Praesidium proved most effective of all three armor pieces, CDF deploy their top tier mech, which for all intents and purposes with armor filters has the equivalent of 700 HP. So I did approve Havoc to use a weapon, he belived would prove more effective. It worked, slightly more effectively then the tanks.

1859- We have a rule against this? It's been done multiple times by multiple people, care to correct me?

1901- Again, we needed to match their armor filters with those of the Ultor. Tanks are more then just moving gun platforms, might want to look into that one.

1902- This was the current weapon auth

1903- Yup

1904- Yup and yup, your points are?

1906- You make me sound like some Hollywood villian, it was the previous weapon, again successful in killing a mech. Bear in mind, CDF had four mechs, three normal (still pretty BS), one top level mech.

1908- Perfectly legit tactic

1911- Yup, completely agree. Skill was winning out here, even with our tech balancing the field, we were still outgunned, yet we keep pushing forward.

1922- You obviously missed me cycling members out and their numbers increasing, of course how could you monitor, you weren't in sim. The comment was in regards to their leader being unable to count, his own active troops at that time (he backpedaled on it later)

1925- I did? I remember asking to clear coms, not yelling. Member of that raid team able to interdependently verify?

1933- Yeah, their mechs again.

1935- If they stand on my turret, and my knife is keyed to the same key as my cannon, I can't really help it, oh and he's standing on a tank.

1938- Again yelling? Maybe raised my voice, I'll admit to that and yeah, final moment of the battle, one final push, common concept in raids... oh wait.

1940- Victory, and a nice leaving present.

The above just demonstrated how little you know about commanding a raid and specific targets in general. Do me a favor Mark, if you want to call me out on somthing, pick somthing where you have a ground to stand on please.

[George Reisman]

Remember guys, we need to be civil with each other here. As much of a heated topic this may be, we're all still allies and friends. In the spirit of goodwill, I present to you this gorilla riding a ram bike.

NOW PLAY ME OFF KEYBOARD CATS

[Aryte]

Ultor are not decommed; just not issued. Re: adding Ryu to battle; CDF often has fluctuating numbers and results in necessity of moving people in and out. Often CDF complains our numbers are uneven, but our numbers are even. He just can't count.

[Kishoshima Dragonash]

Ok.. Im calling and end to this right now.. Hutts, Mark.. if you guys want to be dicks to one another, take it to IMs and slug it out. If there are -any- more low blows from -anyone- in this thread, I'll personally rip your rank off your chest and grind it under my boot. Enough.. put the egos away and let's have a discussion.

[Guest Afevis]

Ok.. Im calling and end to this right now.. Hutts, Mark.. if you guys want to be dicks to one another, take it to IMs and slug it out. If there are -any- more low blows from -anyone- in this thread, I'll personally rip your rank off your chest and grind it under my boot. Enough.. put the egos away and let's have a discussion.

Amen. Play it off, Keyboard Cat.