Navis Focus Group - 17FEB10

[Ethan Schuman]

~ORDO IMPERIALIS~

OFFICIAL DOCUMENT

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**********Meeting Report**********

NAME/RANK/DIVISION: Ethan Schuman | O-2; Centurion | Astra

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DATE: 17 February 2010

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SUBJECT: Potential Revival of Navis

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SUMMARY: Open attendance brainstorming session regarding problems and solutions for a new Navis.

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CHAT LOG:

[15:02] Ethan Schuman: Alright then. Let's get this show on the road.

[15:03] Ethan Schuman: Welcome to the first of a series of meetings to discuss the feasibility and reimplentation of an imperial navy back into the Ordo Imperialis.

[15:04] Beanbag - Singles and Couples Poses whispers: Male Sit 1

[15:04] Ethan Schuman: Today will be pretty much a brainstorming session. We'll cover a variety of topics and consider multiple problems. I ask that before you speak out, you raise your hand.

[15:06] Ethan Schuman: I'll start out with a brief history of naval combat in Second Life militaries, transition into the Navis was before its decommission, and then we will start to discuss how to bring it back.

[15:07] Ethan Schuman: Naval combat in Second Life dates back to before the creation dates of probably every avatar in here. It began in the days of the sandboxes, when the Alliance Navy would build ships from which to operate out of.

[15:09] Ethan Schuman: At first, these ships were stationary, with turrets for defense. However, as time progressed, the development of non-physical movement scripts and multi-move breathed life into these battlefield behemoths, and combat in Second Life changed.

[15:10] Ethan Schuman: The old school fleet ships shared a number of common attributes. Most had provisions for multiple crew members, a large range of high powered weapon systems, and internal corridors and areas to maneuver around in.

[15:12] Ethan Schuman: These systems were acceptable back in the days of SLSALT, but with the development of arms treaties like STABLE and house rules, things got substantially more difficult for navies to operate.

[15:13] Ethan Schuman: Back in the day, there were no such things as void sims and homesteads, so all groups were headquartered in full sims, even if they only took up a small part of the land there.

[15:13] Ethan Schuman: This was beneficial, because the amount of resources available for combat was much greater.

[15:14] Beanbag - Singles and Couples Poses whispers: Male Sit 2

[15:14] Beanbag - Singles and Couples Poses whispers: Neutral 2

[15:14] Beanbag - Singles and Couples Poses whispers: Neutral

[15:14] Beanbag - Singles and Couples Poses whispers: Male Sit 2

[15:14] Ethan Schuman: However, when void sims were introduced, a new series of problems presented themselves. Because void sims were far cheaper than full sims, and still allowed a group to say that they had their own sim, smaller groups began to purchase and relocate to voids/homesteads.

[15:16] *KaS* Waist Corset (spine): Karlhockey's waist is freed from its tight encasement.

[15:16] Ethan Schuman: While the amount of space remained the same, the available script resources, free prims, and agent limits, meant that the high prim, high script intensive multiple crew member ships, on top of the trend towards lower yield munitions, meant the traditional navies were hit with a quadruple whammi, and became very difficult to maintain and operate.

[15:18] Ethan Schuman: The long standing king of fleet combat, the Alliance Navy, found their ships being deployed less and less, and began to trend towards smaller ships like the Molay. Even then, these ships saw far less combat than they had in the years past.

[15:19] Ethan Schuman: For smaller groups who lacked the technological capabilities to develop navies of their own, a lack of interest began to develop.

[15:20] Ethan Schuman: As navies across the community began to shrink and disband, the domino effect of less ships meaning a need for less ships came into play, and many fleet members found themselves on the ground with rifles more often than in the skies with their ships.

[15:21] Ethan Schuman: The end days of Navis best illustrate this. We rarely got the chance to deploy our Admonitors, and even when we did, there usually weren't enough people to fully crew them.

[15:22] Ethan Schuman: Riflemen were simply more effective.

[15:23] Ethan Schuman: The development of the Thanatos bomber was a large step forward for Navis. It packed large, but acceptable, munitions, needed only two crew members to reach maximum effectiveness, and was far lower in script resource intensity than our older ships.

[15:25] Ethan Schuman: However, the Thanatos simply couldn't save Navis from a general lack of interest, and the proliferation of no air to ground combat regulations further damaged its capabilities. Because of this, Navis eventually disbanded and merged into Astra, as Astra began to incorporate the former mission portfolio of Navis.

[15:25] Bradyn Halcali salutes!

[15:26] Ethan Schuman: This is where we sit today. Capital ships are almost never seen on the battlefield for the reasons I presented, and few groups even field them.

[15:28] Ethan Schuman: In order for a navy to properly return, we must address these problems. We will be forced to deal with prim limits, keep things script efficient, minimize the need for crew to maintain maximum effectiveness, use munitions that are generally accepted by the community, and we must do all this while maintaining community interest in naval combat.

[15:29] Ethan Schuman: Not to mention remaining useful on the battlefield to justify naval deployment instead of just going infantry.

[15:29] Ethan Schuman: At this point, I'm going to open the floor for questions and comments up to this point. Please raise your hands.

[15:29] Keystone Gray raises his hand.

[15:29] Nohime Runner raises a hand

[15:29] Jason Backer raises his hand

[15:30] Tiridates Mikadze raises his hand

[15:30] Ethan Schuman: Keystone, it's your go.

[15:31] Keystone Gray: Thank you. There are many points I'd like to discuss, most prominently among them being what we've learned so far. The assimilation of Navis into Astra, and the events leading up to it, were far from a failure. If anything, a lot of the trial-and-error attempts to keep Navis going were the greatest learning experience for us, and we can use that information going forward.

[15:32] Keystone Gray: We attempted to split Navis into two infantry groups, to allow them more blanket-deployment-opportunity, so that Navis members felt as neccessary on the ground as they did in the air. Unfortunately, the roles we gave them were vague, and redundant - Terra adequately handled both Medic TPs and suppressive fire.

[15:33] Keystone Gray: We also learned that, while the Thanatos was a massive success, its capability to be deployed in combat was dwindling, for the very reasons Ethan pointed out earlier: Lack of resources or interest of adversaries to face air-to-ground combat.

[15:34] Keystone Gray: Ultimately, if we are to bring back a 'fleet' division, it is my strong belief that we can not bring it back under a purely 'fleet' mindset. Keep in mind that while we may want it to come back, not everyone wants it in their sims. A few do, they are far and few between.

[15:36] Keystone Gray: So I'm proposing a specialty unit, a sort of Corps of Engineers. While they can receive training in fleet tech, it would also be possible to put them into interesting, experimental roles on the ground. I have a few ideas for this, I'd like to showcase one. Take the MW2 shield mechanic, for instance, drop it into the hands of an unarmed Ordo trooper, and use the directional barrier to draw enemy fire, or to protect advancing troops much like an APC would, only without limiting infantry mobility.

[15:38] Keystone Gray: That idea aside, however, the important key thing here is that if we are to bring this division back, we need to ensure that it is interesting to its members, and that they have a reason to stay.

[15:38] Keystone Gray: Navis members were well trained in their vehicles and their duties, but never got to do them outside combat training.

[15:38] Keystone Gray: Rarely, rather.

[15:39] Keystone Gray: We had a high fallout rate due to lack of interest - lack of activity, most importantly - and we need to make sure we can deflect such an occurance from repeating.

[15:40] Keystone Gray: I'm putting this forward and asking you all for help, too - if anyone has any suggestions on how we could better fulfill a more sweeping role for Navis, one which can include it in all combat scenarios, by all means.

[15:40] Ethan Schuman: Before we progress into that, I'd like to field the other questions and comments.

[15:40] Keystone Gray nods.

[15:41] Ethan Schuman: Let me scroll up and see who was next.

[15:41] Keystone Gray: I do believe Nohime was next, sir.

[15:41] Ethan Schuman: Nohime, Jason, then Tiridates.

[15:41] Ethan Schuman: Nohime, the floor is yours.

[15:42] Nohime Runner smiles "Thank you. Mr. Gray hit on alot of what I was going to say however I will post what I had pre-typed."

[15:42] Nohime Runner: Thank you sir. My eperience with fleet ships comes from the designs I was working on in my short spit with 39th. However while working there it was communally discussed that it was more advantagious to have fleet ships, or Navis in our case, was better as what we know as an alpha squad. Couldn't we make that a possibility here so we are not forcing our members to drop their current specialties to allow an alpha squad for Astra? In this sense it allows us to keep our pilot numbers high and also allow for fleet ship use when and if applicable? Perhaps specialist in Air-to-Ground combat.

[15:44] Ethan Schuman: That approach has actually been tried before, believe it or not. That was the idea behind the Astra-Navis merger. However, what we found is that the primary focus on Astra for air to air combat simply drove most of our members away. There was also a sense of identity that Navis members had, which was lost in the merge. In order to maintain interest, it's probably best if we keep Navis as its own division.

[15:45] Ethan Schuman: Is that all, Nohime?

[15:46] Nohime Runner: I can see that Sir, however, do our Terra Alpha squad members run into the same identity problem? We have ones who are suppose to be specilist in tanks, others in CQC, however when it is all said and done they are riflemen first. I would just heavily suggets that be taken to heart, and that is all from me, yes sir.

[15:46] Ethan Schuman: Alright. Thanks for your input. Mr. Gibson, you are up.

[15:47] Jason Backer: First of all i'd like to state that it was the Jews that was responsible for the closure of Navis. Secondly i'd like to know how you plan to address two key issues, and they're community issues so they will be a mammoth undertaking

[15:49] Ethan Schuman: Very well. What are the issues you'd like me to address?

[15:49] Jason Backer: 1] How are you planning to tackle the status quo. On a typical defense/offence this is what happens. If they put planes up, we put planes up. If they use explosives, we use explosives. If they use vehicles, we use vehicles.

[15:50] Jason Backer: There are not alot of fleet units left in other groups now, certainly not in the enemies we attack. And if they are used, they'll get banned. How can you change a mindset of a community?

[15:52] Jason Backer: Actually I think I rolled the two things I was going to say into one so that will do

[15:52] Jason Backer: Changing the status quo & Community issues pretty much.

[15:57] Ethan Schuman: Alright then. Firstly, the status quo does present a problem, as does the community issue. My solution to both is simple, and has two steps. One, we must diversify the role of Navis. Our crews saw a LOT of combat back in the day on the ground, so that will be something to explore further for the times when they cannot use their vehicles at all. Secondly, for the times when we DO deploy vehicles, our ships should be able to perform a multiple set of roles. Instead of focusing solely on boom boom bombing, we should consider expanding into other combat areas, perhaps making ships with limited air-to-air combat capabilities. If we made Navis a Jack of All Trades division, we would see more deployment without a doubt. Furthermore, this would allow us exposure to the community in multiple ways, so that we could begin a slow phasing in and adaptation of more powerful weapon systems.

[15:59] Ethan Schuman: Now, I should clarify that we in no way would replace Terra or Astra on the battlefield. The idea behind this would be to simply give Navis members more deployment capabilities.

[16:00] Ethan Schuman: Does that answer your question?

[16:02] Jason Backer: It does, I do think steps may have to be taken to educate other groups about what this does. Alot of groups I fear will ban something on the way it appears and assumptions made.

[16:02] Ethan Schuman: Communication with other groups will be vital, without a doubt. Thanks for your question. Tiridates, it's your turn.

[16:03] Tiridates Mikadze: Thank you, Mr. Schuman. I'll warn you all ahead of time, I've got a lot to say, so please, don't off yourselves in the downtime.

[16:03] Ethan Schuman: Very good. Just specify when you are finished.

[16:04] Tiridates Mikadze: As I see it, the current need for Navis is to find a specified role in combat.

[16:04] Tiridates Mikadze: Air to Air is handled well by Astra, fantastically, in fact.

[16:05] Tiridates Mikadze: So, I believe that specializing rather than in a frontline or Ship to Ship role, Navis should consider a support role

[16:05] Tiridates Mikadze: this would fulfill a Jack of all trades position

[16:06] Tiridates Mikadze: by providing aerial support, it can open up new dimensions in combat dynamics for ourselves and those militaries able and willing to diversify

[16:07] Tiridates Mikadze: for example, instead of dropping massive bombs, a fleet ship of a scale larger than the Thanatos can essentially drop limited artillery on positions, while moving slowly, essentially being an aerial tank

[16:07] Tiridates Mikadze: this means Astra can also provide skirmish and escort as well

[16:08] Tiridates Mikadze: But furthermore, using a large scale ship to simply launch fighters and to drop troops onto the field opens up new possibilities

[16:08] Tiridates Mikadze: perhaps even landing ships for tanks and mechs.

[16:09] Keller Teichmann raises his hand. :x

[16:09] Tiridates Mikadze: We'd have to demonstrate these for the community at large, and keep the ships essentially unitasked, so a vehicle transport may have a light defensive armament, but no artillery.

[16:10] Tiridates Mikadze: IT wouldn't be too difficult, especially with advances in sculpting, scripting, and design, to keep these specialized role ships low impact and fair.

[16:11] Tiridates Mikadze: It would also help if we could create a scale and purpose classification for ships, and pass each through the community to see who'll allow which of them to be deployed.

[16:13] Tiridates Mikadze: As for allowing Navis to have something to do when not in the air, possibilities still exist for some sort of specialized ground role, even if it's to help counter Air to Ground assualts.

[16:14] Tiridates Mikadze: And that's more or less all I have to say at this point. By adopting a support role in assisting with Aerial and Terrastrial superiority, it opens up the greatest number of options.

[16:16] Ethan Schuman: You raise a number of good points, Mr. Mikadze. The possibility of, say, an orbital factory, would be quite powerful. Especially if certain weapon systems were ONLY available through that factory.

[16:17] Tiridates Mikadze: Exactly :D

[16:17] Tiridates Mikadze: I'm done, someone else can rant now

[16:17] Ethan Schuman: Keller, you're up.

[16:19] Keller Teichmann: Well, just commenting on the idea of Navis having transport capabilities; People. Freak. When things start falling on them. It's something we learned very quickly when Invictus started making use of the drop-pods, within a couple weeks the only remaining place of deployment was Titan itself, as many groups rewrote their rules because of our's, and Vanguard's, drop pods. Just something to keep in mind - we can't drop things out of the sky or Navis'll be hammer'd faster then a pistol in Sparta.

[16:21] Ethan Schuman: This is an excellent point, Keller. Communication with the rest of the community will be absolutely vital.

[16:21] Blaze Wiles raises paw

[16:21] Keller Teichmann: Many groups will probably instinctively go "Ordo tech? Ordo tech in fleet ships? NO." ... so it's every bit a political balancing act, not just a technical one. :<

[16:23] Ethan Schuman: We'll eep tht in mind. Blaze?

[16:23] Bradyn Halcali also raises his hand

[16:23] Ethan Schuman: Bradyn will be the last question for this meeting.

[16:26] Blaze Wiles: well I have a bit of a concirn regarding how bringing navis back would affect astra, astra has really way taken up the Dropship and atleast light strategic bomber roles to heart now. I'm concirned we may loose our reactionary ability to deploy those while navis was getting back up to strength, also while astra retains it's fighter duties I have noticed both roles of bomber and drops are deployied once in a blue moon.

[16:28] Ethan Schuman: The solution to that could take multiple forms. The best way I can think of to address that would be to allow Astra to continue to use the Thanatos and the Battlebus, but make them secondary priority deployments if Navis can field those roles.

[16:29] Ethan Schuman: Perhaps even share the vehicles between the branches.

[16:29] Keystone Gray: I wouldn't mind dropships being solely an Astra duty. It'd be a disservice to steal thunder, if not the equipment.

[16:30] Ethan Schuman: These are all things to consider. Bradyn, you're up.

[16:30] Ethan Schuman: Also, type quickly. I just got a phone call and i have to call her back soon.

[16:30] Bradyn Halcali: Thank you

[16:30] Bradyn Halcali: I've pretyped a lot

[16:31] Bradyn Halcali: The possibility of an aircraft carrier is appealing, but I think it will be more of a technical challenge to deploy than people realize. Limits will certainly have to be in place. I'd say a size limit of no more than 20 meters at the most if we do it. We'll have to limit the number of aircraft that can be carried, and I think instead of having our guys TP up to the carrier, we have a contingent of Navis pilots stationed on the carrier when combat begins, and they launch from there. Astra pilots should be restricted from the carriers if we are to keep the divisions there, otherwise we might as well call them Astra carriers instead of Navis. There is a lot of things that need to be discussed beforehand

[16:32] Bradyn Halcali: Also, perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way. Instead of giving the Navis units access to heavy bombers and dropships, perhaps we should look at a more precision service role for them. Light, quick strike units that skim the ground and make fast raids to probe enemy defenses, and relay this information back to the main attack force. Instead of giving them slow moving 'aerial tanks' or so on. Make them more of a quick thrust with a dagger instead of a blow with a sledgehammer.

[16:33] Ethan Schuman: The only problem with thse ideas is that they would DRASTICALLY decrease Navis deployment capabilites, and isolate the group into a niche role. Integration with the rest of the Ordo armed forces is of vital importance.

[16:34] Ethan Schuman: Besides, with the exception of the Thanatos, we don't really have much in the way of air to ground support.

[16:35] Ethan Schuman: However, the precision strike role is something that could be easily adapted into the Navis portfolio.

[16:35] Bradyn Halcali: Right, i'm just saying, give them access to craft like what would be equivalent of the AH-1 Cobra for Air to Ground, instead of something like a B-52

[16:36] Bradyn Halcali: Something that moves fast, is easy to keep with the troops in support, and can strike precise targets

[16:36] Ethan Schuman: Any quick questions or comments before we wrap this up?

[16:36] Ethan Schuman: (And I mean QUICK)

[16:36] Tiridates Mikadze: Ethan

[16:36] Tiridates Mikadze: will you love me long time?

[16:36] Ethan Schuman: For five dollah.

[16:36] Ethan Schuman: Anything else?

[16:37] Keystone Gray: Whoever has a log of the meeting, can you please throw it all into a notecard for me, from start to finish?

[16:38] Ethan Schuman: Alright then, ladies and gentlemen. Meeting adjourned. I'll post a log and followup on the forums in a bit. Thank you all for coming.

[Desereck Creeggan]

Navis a Jack of All Trades division,

Don't want to be restricted to the ground? Don't feel like sitting in a cockpit all day? Join Navis! Terra and Astra combined!

All sarcasm over, this is essentially what Navis was back in the day. If I remember correctly, exactly what it was. Not to be a downer, but the military community has moved past bombing the shit out of each other with 30m explosives and fleet ships. Astra controls sky, Terra controls ground. Putting an intermediary is trying to revive something long dead. An Alpha squad in Astra (so to say) and an Alpha squad in Terra would fulfill the same principals as Navis in it's proposed form.

The members who had 'identity' problems in Navis, where they didn't want to go strictly air, nor strictly land.. if I remember they split evenly across the board, half going Terra and half going Astra. Astra as is sees little to no air combat these days, with only a spike in activity with TAC attacking.

But, if you can get it working, by all means it will be an interesting feat. I look forward to it.