Sparta Ban Lifted

[Lilium Supermarine]

NJWJ went too far, Infact i don't think ordo should comment on the page, Thus we degrade ourself to that level of personal attack. The mercz thing, Fine. Bruno being hurt over love? That's not okay, Seriously not okay.

[Scientific Waffle]

NJWJ went too far, Infact i don't think ordo should comment on the page, Thus we degrade ourself to that level of personal attack. The mercz thing, Fine. Bruno being hurt over love? That's not okay, Seriously not okay.

If you do post, do so tactfully and respectfully. Attacking Bruno on a personal level is unnacceptable in a forum as public as the NJWJ, stick to respectful opinions on military matters.

[Cyphre Iredell]

Hurt over love? You mean the extortion part? Doesn't appear he is making an attempt to refute the evidence either last I checked.

[Lilium Supermarine]

Every one handles love differently, Maybe he's not hurt because she's gone. What if he's hurt over wasted time? Or something. Still, NJWJ shouldn't of stuck that into the community.

Dagger Exonar "I love this stuff" <-- Are we like that? Don't post hate comments.

ORDO IMPERIALIS PUBLIC SERVICE MESSAGE.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Lilium Supermarine

[Agares Tretiak]

The article is not so much "Bruno in love and now he's sad". Rather, it's about Bruno, manipulating and using someone for the sake of his own personal gain, and when they leave, becoming enraged and doing a string of harmful things, to both that person, AND his treatment of the SL military community, which has tied in with this anger he has over what happened. That's what Cain was building up to: Bruno was trying to manipulate and twist his way through loopholes and shady activities to keep what he wants, no matter the ethical connotations.

[Lilium Supermarine]

That still doesn't give caine the right to put bruno's personal, and big PERSONAL, Life into some drama happy website to make him MORE angry and MORE anti-problem solving. This solved nothing but show new jessie, and those who condone that kind of article to be no better then paparazzi drama chasing people. I'd rather not even associate myself with bruno then get involved in something that isn't any concern to me. Bruno wants only that person to lead then fine, His sim his rules. Ivy can pull her stuff, he can pay for his own sim and if we don't like his rule we don't have to go no big fucking lose there. Problem solved, Hardly any drama...But people thrive for drama and that's the problem with SL military community thus far.

[Agares Tretiak]

THe thing is, Bruno was bringing this whole mess out in public, Lilium. He was hardly subtle, or reserved with the issue. Instead, he was dragging it around behind him like a dead corpse trophy/club that he used to try and slap down the Mercz. People wanted to know the "why" of what happened, and Caine has more than amply supplied it.

I realize you may not approve of his approach to it, but you could easily state this either publicly or privately with Caine, who I'm sure would love to have a discourse.

[RazorFox]

Y'know, Bruno also illegitimately secured nonprofit/charity status for his sim, which is both fraudulent and pretty despicable as well. While I find it chuckle-worthy that he basically banned all of the Merczateers just because he was butthurt over being dumped (and rightly so, from the looks of it), I find it genuinely repugnant and immoral that he would exploit a charity.

I could care less about Bruno's relationship troubles, but I applaud Caine for exposing that particular element of things.

[Tiridates Mikadze]

Bruno's "love" issues in second life looks more like an egomaniac who's lost one of his biggest cheerleaders, and lashing out like a psychopath than mere butthurt. The cruelty, viciousness, and sheer blind rage doesn't bode well for him. I can understand your concern, Lillium, as a line should be drawn. It's hard to keep that line intact when the participants let it all hang out, and across our toes, as well.

Let us not forget that Bruno has long used his banlist as a self-inflating, masturbatory tool of petty power, rather than as the final outcome of unfortunate, or out of control situations. His long standing policies of draconian, tyrannical would-be power games and changing the rules in the middle of combat doesn't exactly make him respectable in the Military Community. As for his friendship, I can't say what he's like as a friend, he's never tried with me, my only interaction with him was when he tried to shoot me in the 2142 spawn during our Campaign against them.

[Lilium Supermarine]

I do agree exploiting a charity is horrid, even for him. That factor of the post, along with the fake lag accusations against the mercz is more then approved of for caine to clear the mercz of any wrong doing. (Plus make lurdan look like a pretty patient fellow) What i'm saying is he went a little far, there is a clear line between what is for the publics betterment and a personal attack.

Here is my problem... To be more clear.

Ordo members attacking bruno on the comments, Even though aryte has said so many times not to do stuff like that at all, Even in the actual chat log, speaking on behalf of the ordo which could of ruined our newly reopened combat. People just do not think ahead and they dont watch what they say, So when people read it and think this is a view by the Ordo and it's not by any means we have a problem. I don't care so much that bruno's being called a bitch. I care that we're degrading our group by involving our group in this. It's already just a ticking bomb waiting for bruno to have a reason to reban and hate everybody.

[RazorFox]

The unban isn't gonna mean much when LL takes away his sim's charity status and retroactively bills him for all those months of discount land ownership, and then he gets banned for not being able to pay it.

[Wasaac Hax]

In regards to my previous post, while I sincerely apologise for posting in haste and anger and while I didn't mean to offend, I still find a number of derogatory comments made about a man's character in private to equate essentially to bitching.

Cyphre, while I agree with a number of your sentiments, namely that assaulting Sparta's sim is not everyone's cup of tea and that Bruno's policies are both outlandish and draconian. These are fair, justified and reasonable points. My intentions in the previous post however were not to challenge those who choose to challenge the way in which he runs his sim. It was against the immature attacks on him personally that had no evidence or reasoning. I see the comedy value in a number of jokes made yet I was under the impression that Ordo frowned upon childish behavior such as that shown on previous pages.

In regards to your last point, I did not and still do not condone the need for specific individuals to lead the attack on Second Chance yet if we are to give Sparta the impression that we are a mature, responsible military group worth negotiating and initiating combat with, we must be willing to concede such a minor stipulation.

I wholeheartedly agree with a number of points made about Bruno's policies and while backwards they may seem, should you really not agree with them then I suggest you merely refuse to assault his sim.

Waffle, while I yet again apologise for offending anyone through posting in haste, I yet again reiterate that a number of comments made were neither constructive nor mature in nature. I do not refute the fact that he is clearly wrong on a number of levels, I do not refute the fact that his stipulations are misguided and I do not refute the fact that Sparta is a failing military but I do oppose the way in which a few Ordo members are allowed to post personal attack's on a man behind his back without allowing him or someone once close to him to defend the man's honour. It equates essentially an non-constructive bitchfest.

On the other hand, I hold nothing against those who would wish to refrain from participating attacks on Sparta or those who wish to constructively dissect the manner in which he runs his military but at the end of the day, none of these things directly affects anyone who doesn't wish to participate in combat with Sparta. It is after all, his sim and his military. He doesn't have to conform to the expectations of other military groups or the public as he spends a vast amount of time and money on his military. If you don't like his methods, don't go there.

As I still feel slightly bad at the possibility that I offended anyone with my post, I apologise again. My intentions are only to inject some opposition to the criticism that Bruno has received in an effort to ensure it constructive as opposed to insulting.

[Scientific Waffle]

Wasaac, I think that in the end, whether you characterize it as "bitching" or not, this is Ordo's forum where Ordo members are free to express their various opinions in a wide variety of manners. If such comments were in the NJWJ or in public chat, they would not be acceptable.

And in terms of some of Bruno's actions being excusable under the fact that it is "his military" and that "he puts his money into it", I very much disagree. It is perfectly within our right to point out where Bruno's own rules and behavior are draconian (and thus hurt the military community), as well as instances where his behavior is dishonest or outright illegal.

[Lilium Supermarine]

illegal by what? It's our own choice to deal with him. Like i said though, I'm more dishearted by the fact we aren't bigger then personal attacks on a public forum.

[Keystone Gray]

I'll come out and say that I admire your standing up for a friend, Wasaac, but keep in mind that people treat their friends differently than people they don't need to respect.

While Bruno may be kind and compassionate to you, for instance, take a step back and evaluate how he treats Ordo and Mercz. We're more than forthright in a public stance, giving him concessions and allowing him to have certain rules while disputing others that seem unreasonable. Yet despite our wanting to make amends and compromise, he creates arbitrary decisions. He does not want to compromise. Compromise is the main key aspect that resolves any political engagements with the best possible results.

That said, don't be disheartened; you have opinions and the opinions you voiced were well-intentioned. I will not pin your argument towards your detriment. All we ask in situations like this is to observe the many facets of controversial opinions. We're disgruntled after years of begrudgingly trying to work things out with Bruno.

[storytime]

Over a year ago I was engaged in combat with Sparta while in the Merczateers. The base was lightly staffed, and utilizing breaching charges, Lurdan and Anthony had managed to get deep into the Sparta base. They teleported me, and the Spartan defenders didn't know we were there until it was too late, and an entire Merczateer hit squad was pretty much in the throne room at the heart of the facility. The battle raged on for quite a while, and got very vicious when reinforcements from off-base Spartans and some AN arrived.

Naturally, Bruno caught wind of it and logged in. I was an E-4 at the time, figured that the combat would intensify even more after he showed up, and we were hoping that he'd resolve the issues of Spartan defenders setting homepoints in our hardpoints to cheat. Instead, he banned Lurdan for even suggesting that Spartan soldiers would put their homepoints in illegitimate locations, even though that was exactly what was happening. With shortsightedness, he basically destroyed an amazingly fun battle and ruined it for us.

Anthony was still there, so we decided we were going to push onward. We had fun for a short while... until one by one, every Merczateer beside me started disappearing. The reason? Were we cheating? Were we breaking rules? Were we doing anything wrong?

No. The given reason was that we had breached into their base interior, which for some reason was allowed and encouraged in the hub rules, yet the double standard came down on the Merczateers, as our winning was somehow breaking an invisible, unwritten code. I TP'd out in time to avoid getting banned, but damn, I was pretty frustrated.

Why? Because I was having a fun time, and it was ruined due to someone raging at losing. His soldiers were having fun - a few of them were talking to me through a wall midway through the battle and we tossed a few jokes at each other, in good spirit. One was still homepoint whoring, but we put someone on him with a handsaw. All-in-all, we kicked ass, they kicked ass, it was a wonderful fight. The bans ruined it.

[/storytime]

Judging on that experience alone, I'm more than perfectly at ease saying that Bruno doesn't care about fairness in this community. That is only one example out of many, many more that others here can offer. Again though, while the community in Sparta may be tight, and people may be close friends still, it doesn't negate the behavior shown outwardly. That is why we are incensed, and that is why we are angered by Sparta's actions. There are no inhibitions around his anger and spite.

Most evidently of such is his obsession with making Delila look like a whore. The only people I can think of ever approving of such actions are either locked up in an insane asylum, or in UU's high command. Or both.

[Scientific Waffle]

illegal by what? It's our own choice to deal with him. Like i said though, I'm more dishearted by the fact we aren't bigger then personal attacks on a public forum.

When I referred to possibly illegal activities, I was referring to Bruno's abuse of LL's charity sim discounts in what essentially amounts to fraud. As the NJWJ article notes, he'll most likely end up being billed retroactively for the money he has avoided paying LL dishonestly by declaring his sim to be for "charity use".

[Lilium Supermarine]

Is she no better? She also comitted fraud to the LL knowing this was going on, and doing nothing about it. In right, she should also share the bill.

[Scientific Waffle]

Is she no better? She also comitted fraud to the LL knowing this was going on, and doing nothing about it. In right, she should also share the bill.

Whether the cost is shared among multiple individuals or not, the fact remains that Bruno abused the charity system for his own purposes. Whether or not additional fault lies in those who helped him, he has, from what I know of the situation, used dishonest means to further his own military financially. As I have said before, I have no interest in judging or commenting on Bruno's personal life.

[Lilium Supermarine]

Then a merczateer, our own allies. Is guilty of aiding bruno in fraud and dishonest ways. The blame for that cannot be placed entirely on bruno, I doubt he begged or made her do it. Infact i'm sure she offered it.

[Tiridates Mikadze]

You seem awfully eager to clear Bruno of this bad rap.

Frankly, I doubt much of us care, Bruno's been an obnoxious demagogue for a long time now, and a dishonest, arrogant, id-driven one at that.

His lies, pandering, and shallow use of power coupled with his unwarranted self-importance makes him hardly worth such apologetics at this point, beyond the fact that his private life has been dropped on the sidewalk like a jumper from a roof. It's kind of hard to look away from the splayed entrails, but we shouldn't be gawking so much, regardless.

[Aryte]

Really, I wish we could just get back to shooting at each other. I don't care how it happens.

[Scientific Waffle]

Then a merczateer, our own allies. Is guilty of aiding bruno in fraud and dishonest ways. The blame for that cannot be placed entirely on bruno, I doubt he begged or made her do it. Infact i'm sure she offered it.

I would note that the difference here is that while one individual essentially committed fraud and then joined an unrelated organization, the other individual used this fraud to further his own organization. I could care less if Delia joined Mercz, that's their issue to deal with. If she's guilty, she's guilty; the fact that she is a Merczateer is irrelevant. This fraud is in no way related to the Merczateers themselves, nor did it benefit them. The fact remains that the leader of Sparta used fraud to benefit himself and his organization.

Really, I wish we could just get back to shooting at each other. I don't care how it happens.

I think this issue of fraud and personal issues remains irrelevant to the new combat situation between Sparta and Ordo. It's merely an extension of the discussion of the issues Sparta continues to have in both its external and internal affairs. If we're going to be fighting them, might as well discuss who we're dealing with here.

[Cyphre Iredell]

Also illegal: Attempted extortion ;)

If someone else was suddenly running Sparta, we would probably be attacking or defending against them at this very moment. Shooting would commence!

[Emma Roy]

holy crap, I just scroll down the page and see paragraph after paragraph.

Seriously, Lets just go humor them, if that gets us banned. -then- we bitch.

[Lilium Supermarine]

Atleast we know one thing from all of this, Lurdan has quite the patience.