Of Praetorians and May 15th.

[Ron Bleac]

So, basically, I received a long list of complaints from people. Some of these were given directly (big thanks for that) and some of them I picked up after the 'rumors' got back to me, about what we supposedly did or did not do.

Let's get a couple of things straight.

• The Guard did place detpacks on points. There is no regulation anywhere preventing us from placing explosives on points. I am not going to punish my guys for something that they didn't do wrong at all in.
  
• Thatguy was indeed dropped from a Thanatos. It was OK'd by Aryte.
  
• The Guard does not, nor does the rest of Ordo intentionally shoot through prims, walls or anything else with explosives. It happens. It's a battle. I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do to prevent that.
  
• Some individuals in the Guard supposedly took extremely late teleports intentionally. No. Until I'm given names, I can't do anything about that except give general reminders.
  

The argument can be made that detpacks on points is cheap. But detpacks are for exactly that, dropping them on critical points or chokepoints on the battlefield to push the battle in a certain direction; To buy time. Making detpacks destroyable would make things easier for both, but unfortunately the Ordo HUD does not support that. Mines? Mines can be destroyed. When it comes to destroying explosives on a point, it's either you find a way to disarm the explosive or suck it up and capture that point. That's the grim reality of warfare with remote detonated explosives. Same goes for AGMs. AGMs are called AGMs because they're air-to-ground missiles. It's what they're built for in the first place.

If you have a problem with the Guard in combat, come to me directly and explain why you feel the way you do. I'll do my best to assist you.

Sitting there and talking to your friends about it creates nothing but general discontent towards a combat unit within the Ordo. We're all Ordo here, if you put down your own people, we'll be in a ditch in no time.

There's some sort of big rift going on right now, Praetorians being treated differently because they're Praetorians. People perceiving us as elitist because we receive a certain type of training, or more of that. People treating us differently because we're combat oriented, and administrative only after that. It's silly. Drop it. You have your jobs, we do ours. That's as far as it goes, really. I don't know why this kind of behaviour is taking place, maybe it's something we genuinely did wrong, maybe current Praetorians are being treated wrongly because of what their predecessors did, or maybe people are just jealous? It's juvenile to make that suggestion, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Somebody please pipe up and tell me exactly what's up? Because I'd like to hear it!

There is no excuse for sitting there and griping about what supposedly happened at a training exercise. Get with the program, broski. Shit happens. Let's all fight again another day. I would hate to suspend Praetorian exercises on Titan because of something like accidental prim shooting.

[Altus Nirvana]

I thought the entire thing rocked, as I said after the event happened, I fought in places on titan no lonewolfer or raider had or probably ever will be. For some on vent it seemed all they saw was some kinda noob stomp the preatorians were doing, I and im sure many others saw COMBAT in a pure form.

We should fight each other more often, I loved it, it took me back to when I was more into Battlefield and you had to keep ALL your directions checked.

[Aryte]

These people are here to represent the group. As we all are. If they're excellent combatants, that's what I want.

[Tsukiyomi Yuhara]

Wait wha....? I totally missed something. However judging from what Ron's post has said, I would like to add in a bit of my own two cents and how I view combat in SL. It seems to work pretty well for me, but meh.

All of you have heard the term 'Alls fair in love and war' and it's true. When faced with the ultimatum of victory or defeat, no holds bar to achieving victory. We all define our fighting styles, what we deem as fair or acceptable. Granted almost all of us follow the rules of Ordo as a guideline, we still hold to ourselves what we feel is acceptable. Now take into consideration all of your values, everything you have pride in: Skill in combat, being 'fair' by your own right, or just the general standard that gets brought into a fight. Now understand that the person your fighting doesn't care about any of that. Just some food for thought.

If you think something is 'unfair' it can be looked at one of two ways. Either "They used all at their disposal to win." which is perfectly acceptable in my eyes, or the more popular "They needed to do that to win." My recommendation is to not think of it this way. It's hard to kick that mindset sometimes, however it would be good to think of all combat in the former sense rather than the latter. Don't focus on the bad points of battle.

Also, about prim shooting, a .45acp round from a handgun(like a USP) has a penetration rating of about 14 inches in a human body. The standard exterior wall is only about 10 inches thick, and is NOT solid for most of its size as there are 4x4" square holes in the block used to build houses(commonly). Meaning there is about 3~6" of concrete, possibly 4" of wood, and 1 inch of insulation+drywall. Most of that, is ballistically(<-firefox spelling?) inferior to a human body.. So guess what, Bullets go through walls IRL. May as well adopt the ideal now that 'shit happens' and let prim shooting go. Unless it's blatant, in which case, say something? lol. Also apparently a 9mm FMJ goes up to 24" of penetration? thats pretty crazy.

[Aryte]

I sure hope Tsume doesn't see this thread, Tsuki.

[Tiridates Mikadze]

Oh, surely nobody is stupid enough to spread rumors like that.

On either side.

Remember kids, I can come back at any time.

[Agares Tretiak]

These training sessions do not only benefit the Guard, but can be a potential benefit to the Ordo.

Be under no illusions, the Guard will play hard. It's trained and designed to hit the enemy harder and faster, and use hard to counter tactics. But that doesn't mean the Guard is seeking to humiliate or "crush" the defenders in the rank and file. Our role is to toughen and improve the shield of defense while sharpening the sword of our attacks. The Guard benefits by fighting the absolutely best fighting force in SL, by which it can work out any problems. Those problems that occur, however unfortunate, -should- occur during a training session, so that on raids, they can be avoided.

Likewise, the defense has an opportunity to improve it's coordination, test the mettle of the defending commander, allow for a scenario in which the Ordo might potentially "lose" without the ignominious cloud of an actual defeat from our foes. SL combat is not perfect: it has numerous flaws and issues that can only be mitigated via lots of training and practice, as well as a certain degree of understanding that no combat situation is ever going to go exactly how you'd want it. Lag will happen, bullets will penetrate walls, explosives detonate clusters of soldiers, and yes, sadly, TPs will be late sometimes.

In the aftermath, I noticed an interesting difference in the views of the two parties involved in this particular training: The Guard were genuinely strained to keep up a difficult offense, and were overall pleased and glad to have such skilled soldiers as they faced as their comrades. However, the feeling was not entirely reciprocated. I do what I can to assist the Guard to improve its skills and reputation, but this can only be done in an environment of mutual respect and understanding. I know precisely how capable the Ordo is. Terra, Astra, both are remarkable groups with great soldiers and consummate professionals. The Guard is no different, despite it's "otherness": We all serve the Imperator and the Ordo with equal dedication to it's rules, it members, and its leadership.

I am hoping that any after combat concerns are documented fully and presented in a clear and professional manner. The Guard will likewise do its best to provide adequate feedback for the defense as well, so that we both continue to improve.

[Achtai]

Well, I had fun. And I had no ill will towards the guard either actually, I think we should do it more often. Its practice for both fronts IMO. Anyways, I gotta get my catnip back :( it went missing after the last fight I was in and it maded me sad. And I know it was Kishoo..meanie >.< (j/k)

[Singularity Phenomena]

Best home defense fight I had sofar on Titan.

[Huttser]

^ Seconding that. Best defense I've been in for a while, I really enjoyed it and look forward to the next one.

[Lilium Supermarine]

yo no estaba presente para este evento, pero pretorianos son muy bueno

[Krow Ames]

The only thing I've seen these fights do is create animosity. The last three have had the main channel become hell, so bad no one can communicate, and the OIC does nothing to rectify this. The only good thing these raids have done is expose weaknesses in our communication abilities on ventrilo. And nothing is being done about it. There's a laundry list of bad things. Whether or not you shoot through prims or use explosives through them, people react in the moment and their entire idea on Praetorians is based on the worst moment they've had while fighting you.

Ordo personnel attacking Titan is a bad idea altogether. Why do you think I keep Insidiae from engaging other Ordo in trainings? It gets shit started, and apparently, these Praetorian "trainings" are doing just that. All I can recommend is attacking sims other than Titan. If you continue to attack Ordo's sim, it's going to continue causing problems regardless of whether you mean to or not.

The Guard is seperate from the rest of Ordo. People see it and even that little thing can cause some animosity. Then the Guard attacks Titan and all this weird shit happens, seemingly, and it pisses people off. Shit on both sides happen that pisses only one side off. You're only teaching people to dislike the Praetorians, whether you mean it or not.

[Agares Tretiak]

The only thing I've seen these fights do is create animosity. The last three have had the main channel become hell, so bad no one can communicate, and the OIC does nothing to rectify this. The only good thing these raids have done is expose weaknesses in our communication abilities on ventrilo. And nothing is being done about it. There's a laundry list of bad things.

Then, with all due respect, I ask what you are personally going to do to rectify these issues, as an officer. And I mean that in general. I could point out various flaws in the defense and how it is usually run, but unless we do something about it, trying to blame it on the Guard is... kinda missing the whole point. This training is an opportunity to fix our communications problems against a difficult foe, without the problems of fighting an actual enemy. It's -training-. It's a chance to work out kinks in our system. It will be bumpy at first, because it's going to force leadership, of the defense in particular, to actually organize and operate in a constantly changing tactical situation. I'm somewhat surprised anyone would see it as anything other than a great opportunity to show their stuff as a leader.

Tell you guys what. Next training, I'll personally lead the defense of Titan against the Guard or otherwise appoint an Evocati to do so.

We'll see if it's as bad as you claim, Mr. Ames. If so, I'll eat crow (so to say) and personally put an end to this type of training for the Guard.

[Krow Ames]

I'm not blaming it on the Guard. It's actually a good thing that you exposed the weakness. Teamspeak, plz. If you have no used teamspeak before, let me tell you how much better it is than Vent. It's /way/ better. Channel commanders, talk to a channel from another channel, or all channels from another channel. I was in a 2142 league before I joined Ordo and we organized multiple squads within a 32 man team against an equally organized opponent, and it was heaven. Each squad had it's own channel, the channel commander could talk to the team commander in his channel, and the team commander could talk to all channel commanders. Teamspeak offers a massive tactical edge over ventrilo. It's a fucking mess in ventrilo.

HOWEVER:

The problem I have is when Sukasa and Arokh have to get on somebody two or three times to get them to stop badmouthing the Guard. They won't do it with Aryte in the channel, or you, but that shit happens. I sit back, and I listen, and I learn a lot of shit by keeping my mouth shut. Maybe I should have stepped up, but the shit I'd have to do to reorganize the defense and get it working properly would pretty much cripple us in the process and give the field to the Guard.

I'm not going to usurp an OIC in front of everybody. I'm not going to take command from him and probably add to the confusion. If I was OIC during the beginning, I'd be fine with it, but I'm not taking it in the middle. It would make things ten times worse for longer than I'd want.

[Cyphre Iredell]

I sort of brought up the same point the many years ago it was originally suggested, and no matter how you play it, it isn't the same as training. Random training among random individuals, such as Sunday stress tests, are entirely different than putting Praetorians or an alpha squad against 'everyone else' because you are specifically grouping certain individuals based upon their given ranks or cohors. Which is all good and well when going up against enemy bases, but not against Ordo itself. Animosity breeds when someone can classify all of a person as being one of 'them' rather than being in the very same military under the same commanders. Then all we end up with are threads throwing vague accusations of dissension among the populace! XD

Ventrilo communication will always break down when people don't shut the hell up. For all anyone knows, the OIC may have been trying to communicate to no avail.

Did you see the thread Firefox posted on TS3, krow?

[Krow Ames]

Did you see the thread Firefox posted on TS3, krow?

Not the end of it. Just saw he was suggesting it.

[Aryte]

(He is test piloting it. Will resume when he's back from Army Sensitivity Training.)

[Acheron Gloom]

I'm just mad I keep missing these.

I want to kill some Praetorians.

[RazorFox]

The problem I have is when Sukasa and Arokh have to get on somebody two or three times to get them to stop badmouthing the Guard. They won't do it with Aryte in the channel, or you, but that shit happens. I sit back, and I listen, and I learn a lot of shit by keeping my mouth shut. Maybe I should have stepped up, but the shit I'd have to do to reorganize the defense and get it working properly would pretty much cripple us in the process and give the field to the Guard.

See, this really grinds my gears. We're all Ordo. We're all on the same team at the end of the day, and nobody thinks any goddamn less of anyone for losing at a training exercise. What I think less of people for, however, is harboring attitudes or behaving in a manner detrimental to the success of the group, and shit-talking a particular unit and its members, or in any way enabling infighting within the group is absolutely unacceptable.

And really, if someone can't muster up the balls to say something in front of Aryte, maybe they ought to reconsider whether it's something that ought to be said (or even thought) in the first place.

I would kindly direct anyone downtalking the Guard or anyone in this group at all to this long-ass thing I wrote on a train.

[Altus Nirvana]

I dont mean to be a brown noser, but just what were people thinking was gonna happen going up against the top elite unit ordo has in its stable? Just take a damn breather and be thankful opportunities to scrim against the top dogs of the roster come around and give it better shot next time. If your starting to get overly emotional over anything, get yourself excused and sit out of the event. You dont need to be getting pissed on vent or seriously vilifying your comrades playing opfor and looking completely mental at the computer. These are your teammates. We fight each other cause there is no other. Actual militaries and sport teams do it, this is a real world application. This was a fight that consisted of everyone who lived in our house, stayed in our backyard, so that we're even more ready for the next group of sidewalk commandos to come walking into our front lawn. Handle yourself as a soldier among family, thats what you agreed to when you graduated schola.

/2cents

[Voncloud Akros]

I wasnt there for the defense and im just sticking my own ore in cause as some people have probably seen, im not overly fussed about voicing my opinions, if your 2 scared to say what you think you wont get very far or improve anything is the way i see it, but i digress

I think the main little issue i have with the preatorioans atm, isnt their training because end of the day, they have earned their right to be preatorians. My little gripe with them is the fact that in some cases it seems to be One rule for Ordo and one rule for them, things that we as Ordo shouldnt be doing, isnt applying to them, like jumping into the red zone when its just a normal Defense, i know they are allowed in the Red zone If it calls for it, like sorting out an Issue or whatever, but when its just a normal defense they should sit behind the red line like the rest of us. The Elite training shouldnt make them excempt from the same Basic rules the Ordo as an organisation adere to.

Just again, this is my own opinion not based on anyone elses thoughts. But the det packs on the points i do consider very cheap, reason behind it is because we already have so many defensive options with our build do we need to make it that much harder for them to cap the points, and as an elite group to me, would mean using the skills i myself possess, not using what i percive to be somewhat an underhanded tactic, Alls fair in love and war true, but often we do forget that dispite the way the community is, people still can get frustrated with such a tactic. If we were to compare this to IRL then that detpack would be in a sense useless unless you were able to sit and watch that pack and then explode it. I will say that if i were a preatorian (like that would happen) i wouldnt use such a tactic, because i myself should be enough of a weapon to not need it. Just my thoughts, not having a go at anyone just voicing my opinions as i usually do. Peace

[Agares Tretiak]

There are actually, two different rule-sets. Yes.

The Guard's are far, far more strict than the ones most Ordo have to deal with. Minor infractions can result in a number of fairly severe punishments, including being banned from participating in raids, extended probationary periods, severe reprimands, and repeated offenses result in either a summary demotion or expulsion from the Guard. Not to mention, minor insubordination is in turn greeted with a summary execution and a dressing down after combat. If a Guardsman cannot adequately provide reason for taking a particular action, similarly severe recourses are taken, first to adjust the problem, and if that doesn't work, removal from the Guard.

The Guard do have several unique powers, in relations to their particular placement in the structure, but it comes at a rather high cost of very rarely making mistakes. Arbitrary use of the more specific powers, such as stripping any member (especially officers) of their rank and authority, results in a full blown AiR/Curia joint investigation, on the charges of Treason. Under my auspices as Praefectus, that or similar such actions would result in demotion, stripping of merits, and removal from the Guard, if found guilty.

I'm not sure how much anyone other than those who wish to join the Guard would want to be under the threat of severe punishments for even minor infractions.

Mr. Akros, I cannot assume to know when or where you witness the Guard using its ability, nor what the circumstances are that it is used. I can recommend that if you have concerns, you can present them to the OIC of a defense, after combat has been finished, or to the Praetorian in question to support their use of that particular authority. What may seem an arbitrary reason to you, may be a tactical or security concern you're simply not been made aware of. That is not to say there might be occasions where the Guard has not abused it, but in my experience, those are fairly rare and far between.

If you feel there was an honest abuse of power, we have a reporting structure for such incidents, and you may approach either the Curia, an Evocati of the Guard (Ron, Keller, Kristian), or myself to try to address any behavior you find questionable. Providing full details on the circumstances, being able to quote the particular regulation that may have been broken, and making sure the issue is not simply an arbitrary one all help your case be heard. Likewise, if you try to issue a formal complaint over possible abuse of power without these things, it will generally be discarded and you'll likely be chided for wasting our time. Along the same lines, I might recommend learning more about how the Guard should operate, so you can assist us in identifying where problems are happening, so we can appropriately fix said issue.

I will not claim the Guard is perfect: It's composed of people just like anywhere else. It is entirely possible areas of improvement that can and should be made, but without professional, objective feedback, it is rather difficult to sort out the butthurt and petty from the legitimate.

To wrap up this already long post, our tactics are not meant to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. As I said, we will hit hard and use techniques and tactics that are difficult to counter or adjust to, specifically because that's exactly what we're supposed to do. God knows how many of our enemies use legitimately cheap tactics, ones the guard wouldn't use. To expect we'd pull our punches is a bit ludicrous, from just a tactical standpoint.

That in mind, the Ordo possesses, without a doubt, the absolute best rank and file on the grid. You guys form a very strong, very reliable backbone, and are capable as a team to overcome any opposition on the field of combat, when provided with strong leadership to help focus that might. It's always been my honor to serve this group, and I think I can speak for the Guard in saying they feel much the same.

TL;DR

1. Guard have incredibly strict rules.

2. I don't like failures in my Guard.

3. Increase your awareness of how the Guard operates (it's all in the Carta)

4. Report concerns using evidence and objective arguments to support your position using our reporting structure.

5. The Praetorian Guard will not be nice to you in a fight. Do not expect tea, until after the battle is done.

6. You guys (who aren't in the Guard) are still incredibly awesome people and soldiers.

7. <3

[Aryte]

No one's ever had a problem with detpacks on points against our enemies. Just, now that it's being used against us in training, it's suddenly a big no-no.

[Lilium Supermarine]

No one's ever had a problem with detpacks on points against our enemies. Just, now that it's being used against us in training, it's suddenly a big no-no.

que se llama doble moral, que no es bueno

NO ES BUENO :confused:

[Acheron Gloom]

No one's ever had a problem with detpacks on points against our enemies. Just, now that it's being used against us in training, it's suddenly a big no-no.

I've just been kind of reading the thread and not commenting, since I wasn't even in combat, but I would like to mention that theres been numerous times I've heard people being told not to place detpacks/explosives directly on points.